Gfci protection

[jph320]

I know gfcis are required in unfinished basements but what about outlets for specific equipment. Like sump pump or blower for hotwater heater? Do they need to be gfci or can i use a single use outlet for each? Thanks

 

[infinity]

In NJ a single receptacle for a sump pump or HWH does not require GFCI protection. Here's the New Jersey Amendments:

210.8 (A) (5)- Unfinished basements: For purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like.
Exception No. 1 to (5) - Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2 to (5) - A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7 (A)(6), (A)7, or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3 to (5) - A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8 (A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52 (G)."

 

[tom baker]

Review section 210. 8 (A). If the GFCI trips its doing its job. A GFCI trips at 4-6 mA, if your sump pump trips it, what was the leakage current? 10, 15 50 MA?
I once got a call to a waste water lift station in a underground pit, the entire pit with all the electrical was flooded and the pumps were still running.

 

[rc/retired]

Depends on which you code cycle you're on. For a few cycles now, GFI protection has been required for 125 v 15 & 20 a receptacle outlets in unfinished basements.
The 2020 code requires GFI protected outlets in finished basements now.

Ron, member formerly known as rcarroll

 

[Fred B]

In NJ a single receptacle for a sump pump or HWH does not require GFCI protection. Here's the New Jersey Amendments:

What Tom said. I dont think an exemption for single outlet vs Duplex exists. Even if it did I would be inclined to use gfi on a sump pump for basement. Been in too many flooded basements that sump wasn't adequate to keep up and became submerged, no gfi and water was charged.

 

[Greentagger]

Sump pumps are included in the 2020 under 422.

 

[winnie]

My preference is for GFCI on sump pumps required or not.

However I've personally experienced the following: bad storm with power failure flooding a basement. After power was restored the GFCI supplying the open motor tripped, doing its job. If a GFCI is used, then select a pump where leakage current means the pump is broken, not simply flooded.

Also locate the GFCI receptacle as far out of the flood zone as practicable.

Jon

 

[ActionDave]

....Ron, member formerly known as rcarroll

Nice to see you are still kicking.

 

[rc/retired]

Nice to see you are still kicking.

Thanks. Good to be back.

 

[Little Bill]

Thanks. Good to be back.

Did you forget your password and had to open a new account?
Or did you just want a new name/acct?
If the former, we could probably get Admin to restore it for you.

 

[takelly]

Zoeller,s owner’s manual state that the pump must be connected to a three prong grounded receptacle with ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI).

 

[rc/retired]

Did you forget your password and had to open a new account?
Or did you just want a new name/acct?
If the former, we could probably get Admin to restore it for you.

I didn't post much when the pandemic started. Then I retired December 31st & got a little I pad for home & a new email address.
I'm ok with this. Thanks for checking.

 

[infinity]

We're not required to use GFCI protection for a sump pump and I still think that it's not a good idea. Seems that some of the smart people here in NJ who make the rules think so as well that's why they have retained the pre-2008 NEC exceptions.

We often complain here about code changes without any substantiation and I wonder how many people in NJ have died as a result of having a single receptacle for a sump pump in the decade and a half since the NEC removed the GFCI exceptions.

 

[goldstar]

I know I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this but here goes. I am not a proponent of requiring GFCI protection on appliances like sump pumps, sewer ejector pumps and garage door openers. I know the Code says what it says and we EC's have to follow the rules. However, when the basement floods, or the basement toilet backs up or your wife can't push a button and open the garage door in a storm because the GFCI tripped all those GFCI's get changed back to std. receptacles, if not by one of us then by a HO.

I'm guessing CMP's often make these rules based on specific incidents where people received an electric shock but in the cases I cited I find it hard to believe that there were that many incidents that would warrant the change in the Code section. I don't have any documentation to support my claims but in a country with over 3 million people I would think there should be a sizable # of incidents before any of the CMP's propose a change.

Just my opinion.

 

[retirede]

I know I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this but here goes. I am not a proponent of requiring GFCI protection on appliances like sump pumps, sewer ejector pumps and garage door openers. I know the Code says what it says and we EC's have to follow the rules. However, when the basement floods, or the basement toilet backs up or your wife can't push a button and open the garage door in a storm because the GFCI tripped all those GFCI's get changed back to std. receptacles, if not by one of us then by a HO.

I'm guessing CMP's often make these rules based on specific incidents where people received an electric shock but in the cases I cited I find it hard to believe that there were that many incidents that would warrant the change in the Code section. I don't have any documentation to support my claims but in a country with over 3 million people I would think there should be a sizable # of incidents before any of the CMP's propose a change.

Just my opinion.

Modern GFCIs don’t randomly trip for no reason. If one feels an application is that critical, there are alternatives such as battery-backed sump pumps and GDOs.

Just my opinion.

 

[kwired]

I know I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this but here goes. I am not a proponent of requiring GFCI protection on appliances like sump pumps, sewer ejector pumps and garage door openers. I know the Code says what it says and we EC's have to follow the rules. However, when the basement floods, or the basement toilet backs up or your wife can't push a button and open the garage door in a storm because the GFCI tripped all those GFCI's get changed back to std. receptacles, if not by one of us then by a HO.

I'm guessing CMP's often make these rules based on specific incidents where people received an electric shock but in the cases I cited I find it hard to believe that there were that many incidents that would warrant the change in the Code section. I don't have any documentation to support my claims but in a country with over 3 million people I would think there should be a sizable # of incidents before any of the CMP's propose a change.

Just my opinion.

I have somewhat mixed opinion on this. Back when there was GFCI exceptions I would occasionally run into a single outlet provided for one of those exceptions that had a three way tap or power strip plugged into it and supplying other items because "that one" didn't trip.

I don't know that I am on board with 2020 GFCI requirements either, nor have I been with some of what was added in 2014 and 2017.

Why is a finished basement any more or less of a hazard than if you had the same thing but with a slab on grade? Why are some those 240 volt loads (single or three phase) now a problem when there has been little for incidents over the years with them? Missing EGC is probably the main cause of incidents, you mostly only see that with 5-15 cord connectors, maybe a poorly made 6-15 here or there, but 30-50 amp pretty much needs to be intentional disconnection to not have an EGC.

 

[takelly]

My boss once told me not to do anything that I could not defend on the witness stand.

 

[winnie]

Modern GFCIs don’t randomly trip for no reason. If one feels an application is that critical, there are alternatives such as battery-backed sump pumps and GDOs.

Per my comments above, I tend to agree with this. Given modern insulation systems, if there is leakage of current to ground then something is _broken_.

I do believe that there is room for specialized GFCIs where if you have an assured EGC that higher leakage current should be permitted. Consider specifically sump pumps. A seal failure is a real possibility, and this failure is likely to happen when you really need the pump to work. But if current is now leaking from the windings to the steel of the motor and then back to the EGC, this really isn't a hazard to humans. So I'd be open to a GFCI like device that is less sensitive to faults returning to that device EGC. Say tripping on 50mA or above returning on the EGC but 6mA on current going elsewhere.

-Jon

 

[kwired]

Per my comments above, I tend to agree with this. Given modern insulation systems, if there is leakage of current to ground then something is _broken_.

I do believe that there is room for specialized GFCIs where if you have an assured EGC that higher leakage current should be permitted. Consider specifically sump pumps. A seal failure is a real possibility, and this failure is likely to happen when you really need the pump to work. But if current is now leaking from the windings to the steel of the motor and then back to the EGC, this really isn't a hazard to humans. So I'd be open to a GFCI like device that is less sensitive to faults returning to that device EGC. Say tripping on 50mA or above returning on the EGC but 6mA on current going elsewhere.

-Jon

The problem isn't that there is GFP level protection, in past it has been the fact you have a 5-15 or 5-20 receptacle supplying it and then someone decides to plug something else in that really should be protected by GFCI in that particular location. Go back far enough to where there were GFCI exceptions (use a single receptacle maybe for that item) and Mr Homeowner is plugging a power strip into that non protected receptacle and powering other items from it that weren't intended to be included in the exception. Now they are adding nearly all receptacles operating at 150 to ground or less, so the receptacle is the driving factor here period, unless you want to get a hard wired or a 480 volt sump pump. For now anyway, eventually they probably will have GFCI's required on 480 volts as well.

 

[mortimer]

Did you forget your password and had to open a new account?
Or did you just want a new name/acct?
If the former, we could probably get Admin to restore it for you.

They did not restore it for me. I was formally Hendrix.