GFCI Readily Accessible

Status
Not open for further replies.
V

Vmadden

Member
Location
Baltimore
I am dealing with an inspector that has a much different interpretation of readily accessible. The inspector is requiring a GFI device for bathrooms on each floor of the house where the bathroom is located. His reason is that he does not believe a GFI breaker at the panel for example is readily accessible if the panel is on a different floor as the bathroom.

Same is true with the dishwasher and disposal. He is making us install a GFI receptacle under the sink for both in order to make this readily accessible to the disposal and dishwasher.

We cannot install dual function arc/GFI breakers for small appliance circuits because the GFI device at the panel is not readily accessible to the kitchen.

The code also requires Arc fault devices to be readily accessible. They are all normally installed at the panel.

Furthermore if the disposal is hardwired does it need to be GFI protected? I do realize it has to be arc fault protected.

Any thoughts?
 
In my opinion the inspector is incorrect and may be using the wrong definition.

210.8 calls for a readily accessible location.


210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel shall be provided as required in 2IO.8(A) through
(C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in
a readily accessible location.
Click to expand...

Here is the definition of that from article 100.


Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being
reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove
obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.
Click to expand...


However the inspector seems to trying to enforce it as accessible.

Here is the definition for that, notice it mentions elevation.


Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.
Click to expand...


You may have to go over the inspectors head because this is a ridiculous costly mistake on the inspectors part.
 
ptonsparky said:
Oooh, that would or should get things started.:huh:
Click to expand...
I don't think so. I think trying to make your case with this kind of guy is going to end in frustration, better to avoid all that wasted energy and bad blood and just say, "I don't see it your way and you are not going to see it mine, let's talk to your boss and see what he has to say."
 
ActionDave said:
I don't think so. I think trying to make your case with this kind of guy is going to end in frustration, better to avoid all that wasted energy and bad blood and just say, "I don't see it your way and you are not going to see it mine, let's talk to your boss and see what he has to say."
Click to expand...

I agree.

I figured by that statement he would know you disagreed and you were not going to waste time with him.
 
Vmadden said:
I am dealing with an inspector that has a much different interpretation of readily accessible. The inspector is requiring a GFI device for bathrooms on each floor of the house where the bathroom is located. His reason is that he does not believe a GFI breaker at the panel for example is readily accessible if the panel is on a different floor as the bathroom.

Same is true with the dishwasher and disposal. He is making us install a GFI receptacle under the sink for both in order to make this readily accessible to the disposal and dishwasher.

We cannot install dual function arc/GFI breakers for small appliance circuits because the GFI device at the panel is not readily accessible to the kitchen.

The code also requires Arc fault devices to be readily accessible. They are all normally installed at the panel.

Furthermore if the disposal is hardwired does it need to be GFI protected? I do realize it has to be arc fault protected.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

The inspector is wrong, plain and simple. He clearly does not understand the NEC definition of "readily accessible".
As for the disposal, the disposal would not need the GFCI at all if hard wired under the 2014 edition. This inspector will really be confused by the 2017 edition, that due to a change/clarification, 210.8 will not even require GFCI for even a cord and plug disposal as the 6 foot rule was clarified with a new paragraph.
 
I see this as another example of what I describe as, "language getting in the way of communication." We should all keep in mind the fact, I say again the FACT, that we all speak at least two languages. For me, one language I will call, "conversational English." The other is the language of our profession. Sadly, there is a great deal of overlap between the two. We need to remember that, and to be aware of which language we are speaking. The most common example of this concept is the word "emergency." A homeowner going to a big box store to buy an "emergency generator" is not using that word in the context of article 700. In the present instance, the inspector is speaking and reading "conversational English" when he sees "readily accessible" and thinks it means "near at hand and easy to get to." A person totally unfamiliar with our profession could easily think the same thing. But in the language of our profession, that phrase has a specific meaning, as has already been mentioned in this thread.
 
I agree that the inspector is incorrect. The requirement for arc fault protection uses similar language, does the inspector want those devices in every room requiring arc fault?

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Arc-
fault circuit-interrupter protection shall be provided as required in 210.12(A) (B), and (C). The arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
Click to expand...

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for
personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through
(C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in
a readily accessible location
Click to expand...
 
First give the inspector the benefit of the doubt that he is willing to learn and show him the appropriate code sections if you already tried this go to immediate superior.
 
RICK NAPIER said:
First give the inspector the benefit of the doubt that he is willing to learn and show him the appropriate code sections if you already tried this go to immediate superior.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I'm sure that Rick knows that a handful of inspectors can be pretty thickheaded. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I hear sitting in Electrical Inspector CEU seminars from inspectors bragging about how they made so and so do this and that. :roll:

Some of the stories that come out of the contractors license seminars are even better.
 
Vmadden said:
I am dealing with an inspector that has a much different interpretation of readily accessible. The inspector is requiring a GFI device for bathrooms on each floor of the house where the bathroom is located. His reason is that he does not believe a GFI breaker at the panel for example is readily accessible if the panel is on a different floor as the bathroom.

Same is true with the dishwasher and disposal. He is making us install a GFI receptacle under the sink for both in order to make this readily accessible to the disposal and dishwasher.

We cannot install dual function arc/GFI breakers for small appliance circuits because the GFI device at the panel is not readily accessible to the kitchen.

The code also requires Arc fault devices to be readily accessible. They are all normally installed at the panel.

Furthermore if the disposal is hardwired does it need to be GFI protected? I do realize it has to be arc fault protected.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

infinity said:
I agree that the inspector is incorrect. The requirement for arc fault protection uses similar language, does the inspector want those devices in every room requiring arc fault?
Click to expand...

ActionDave said:
I would not even try to argue with this guy, I would politely ask him for his supervisor's number.
Click to expand...

Unfortanatly he is the cheif inspector for Baltimore City and his boss is not an electrical guy. I have tried in the past to respectfully question him and he gets very angry.
 
ptonsparky said:
I agree.

I figured by that statement he would know you disagreed and you were not going to waste time with him.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:

RICK NAPIER said:
First give the inspector the benefit of the doubt that he is willing to learn and show him the appropriate code sections if you already tried this go to immediate superior.
Click to expand...
This is too NEC 101 for an inspector to not understand - especially when we later find out he is at the top of the chain of command for his jurisdiction.

ActionDave said:
Somewhere up the food chain has to be somebody with some sense.
Click to expand...
If going up that chain becomes more difficult because he is at the top it becomes more of a challenge. You can only read and state your interpretations so many times, if you can't even get him to consider he may be wrong on the first try you are wasting your time debating directly to him. Now you need to get him convinced of his error by peers. One of the easiest ways may be to get him to read posts on a site like this, but he could still be too stubborn to pay attention. Next step is through professional associations - won't make him reverse a decision on one particular install though, the association needs time to either convince him to change or if that don't work convince the entity that hires him that he is not competent to perform his job.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top