GFCI Receptacle

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A GFCI has two torroid coils or CTs. One detects the current imbalance between hot and neutral, the other detects the grounded netural, as you can get a shock from the neutral. The grounded neutral CT is what trips the GFCI on a neutral to ground connection, and by the way we have the same protection in an AFCI, but at higher trip level. Thus a common reason for AFCI tripping is a neutal to ground connection.
 
hillbilly said:
A bonding screw would still be non-compliant, but IMO it would be the lesser of two evils.
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kbsparky said:
Who made that suggestion?
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Incoming BRICK-O-GRAM for HillBilly:
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bricks.gif
 
tom baker said:
A GFCI has two torroid coils or CTs. One detects the current imbalance between hot and neutral, the other detects the grounded netural, as you can get a shock from the neutral. The grounded neutral CT is what trips the GFCI on a neutral to ground connection, and by the way we have the same protection in an AFCI, but at higher trip level. Thus a common reason for AFCI tripping is a neutal to ground connection.
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I always thought there was just once CT and if you had a ground to neutral connection all paths of current would be used (some on the neutral and some on the ground) and that would cause the current imbalance forcing the trip.

I seem to learn something just about every day on this site.
 
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Mike,

I don't think I'm familiar with a "meter combo". Is that where the GEC's are connected? Are there any grounding electrodes connected to the ground bar in the panel?

I once saw a house where the sparky wanted to keep the grounding and grounded conductors isolated. I disagreed with his install but at least he had a fault current path.
 
Dave58er said:
Mike,

I don't think I'm familiar with a "meter combo". Is that where the GEC's are connected? Are there any grounding electrodes connected to the ground bar in the panel?

I once saw a house where the sparky wanted to keep the grounding and grounded conductors isolated. I disagreed with his install but at least he had a fault current path.
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You didn`t say if the panel in question was the primary panel or a remote panel.That would determine if the grounded and grounding conductors need to be isolated.
 
Dave58er said:
Mike, I don't think I'm familiar with a "meter combo". Is that where the GEC's are connected? Are there any grounding electrodes connected to the ground bar in the panel?
I once saw a house where the sparky wanted to keep the grounding and grounded conductors isolated. I disagreed with his install but at least he had a fault current path.
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allenwayne said:
You didn`t say if the panel in question was the primary panel or a remote panel.That would determine if the grounded and grounding conductors need to be isolated.
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Allen I did as Dave pointed out by the statement he was not familiar with a ?Meter combo?

Dave a meter combo is a panel that has the meter built in the same enclosure. The meter combo was a 200 amp main breaker 12 circuit panel that contained the meter in the same enclosure. The bonding of the EGC, GEC and the grounded conductor was installed correctly.
The problem is that in the inside (subpanel) the 3/0 and #6 are installed in parallel. They both originate together in the meter combo and terminate together at the isolated terminal in the subpanel.
The equipment grounding conductors in the inside panel do not have a path back to the bonding point in the outside panel. The pipe between the two panels is PVC.
To correct this problem is as simple as moving the green #6 from the grounded (neutral) terminal to the enclosure in some way.
.
 
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GFCI Receptacle

This reminds me of a situation when I was an apprentice. On the final of a new home we discovered a ground fault on a lighting circuit. After much searching the journyeman could not find the problem so he went to the panel and cut egc off. I tried to explain to him that the ground terminal on all the pugs were hot,only to be told that he was not going to be told how to wire by an apprentice.

On the gfci issue as an inspector I test every gfci protected outlet making sure that the gfci trips,It seems that all inspectors don't do that.

On the bonding issue I see a parallel neutral as well as the other more serious problem. This person really needs to be stopped,maybe a call to the inspector is in order.
 
GFCI Receptacle

Something just entered my mind. With the egc not being attached to neutral, would a simple Ideal tester show an open ground when testing the recptacles?
 
romeo said:
Something just entered my mind. With the egc not being attached to neutral, would a simple Ideal tester show an open ground when testing the recptacles?
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With this panel installed in the manner shown the tester would show an open equipment grounding conductor.
In the event of a ground fault every plate screw in the house would be energized.
 
GFCI Receptacle

That is my point if this person has been doing this for years why hasn't some inspector found it while testing receptacles on a final inspection.? I test every receptacle in a house with my handy little cheapo Ideal tester and all afci and gfci protected receptacles with my expensive ideal tester.

Did u see my post about the journeyman that cut the egc at the panel rather than find the ground fault? Just to let you know today he is retired and is an inspector.

I just find it hard to understand how this guy could do this for years and never had it catch up to him.

Question what happened to the spell check here?I can no longer find it. My spelling needs lots of help.
 
romeo said:
That is my point if this person has been doing this for years why hasn't some inspector found it while testing receptacles on a final inspection.? I test every receptacle in a house with my handy little cheapo Ideal tester and all afci and gfci protected receptacles with my expensive ideal tester.
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In North Carolina it is against the law to have power to a building before it receives a CO. There are a few exceptions but to have a house with power is out of the question.

It is not a violation to have a circuit that does not work as long as the circuit is installed in a code compliant manner. If the GFCI doesn?t work that would be an issue between the customer and contractor not the inspector and electrician.
The same is true with lighting fixtures and switches. As long as the fixture and switch are in place and no code violation is present then the workability of the light would be between the customer and contractor and not the inspector and electrician.

On a side note;
Should there be power on the building for whatever reason the inspector is not allowed to use the test results of an Ideal tester to turn down an installation. Here the only accepted test is to use the test button on the device.
 
It`s the same here,no power on a final except if you have enough clout you can get a temp power on but that is usually when hardwood flooring is installed and the A/C regulates the humidity.Our inspectors here make sure all spacing is to code, all devices are installed, all breaker ratings are correct,They inspect the panel and meter and equiptment hook ups .If they ever tried to do power on inspections and have the inspectors had to test everything they would go from a 3 or 4 day back up to months behind.

Our inspectors sometimes get 30 - 40 cards a day/ inspector and they always roll calls on a daily basis.Now if you are in an area that you only get a few inspections per day I could see that system plausable.But here it would be a fiasco......
 
GFCI Receptacles

GFCI Receptacles

How can an inspector know for sure that requiered receptacles are protected if he can not trip the device and then make sure there is no power at the receptale? You are correct that the trip button is the final test but it is covenient to trip the device from a receptacle then make sure that all the requiered ones have no power.I also question open grounds and reverse polarity, that is not always uncommon.

I would leave my inspectors job if I had to pass a dwelling w/o power in it,because IMO it is impossable to be sure that all is safe for the resident.
 
Here it is done with a visual inspection. The inspector is to trace each circuit to see that it is supplied from a GFCI circuit. This is to ensure that the inspector is looking at the installed conductor instead of trying to make sure that all the fixtures have bulbs.

Simply open the device or fixture and do a visual of the polarity of the connection. This is how to check for the use of stab-loc on a #12 conductor.

Should an inspector use a tester and list on the non-compliance report that he used a tester to find a violation I would disregard his findings and proceed as though I had passed totally ignoring his findings.

I do understand why some inspectors like having the power on while doing a final but it is not the procedure for the state of NC.
 
In Maryland, no power=no inspection, and possibly a fee for reinspection. Gfci is something they all check, every single location where required, and if it dont trip, you dont pass. I cant belive you can get a use-and-occupancy without checking smoke detectors and gfcis, just to mention 2 things
 
GFCI Receptacle

John nice call about no test on smoke detectors. This will be my last response. JWEL are u saying that I should remove every outlet to check polarity when I can do it w/a tester? Let the electrician prove the tester wrong. Tracing wiring on the rough can be trying when neet and workman like is forgotten.

Show me someone that dosen't make a mistake and I will show you someone that is not doing anything. I have seen some very good electricians have a blonde moment including myself.

Allen From what you are telling me there is too much of a work load for the inspectors to do a thourough inspection. Maybe it would be a good idea to raise permit fees and hire more inspectors to protect the consumer. I was once told that there is such thing as financial hardship when it comes to public saftey. Seems right idea to me.

We started talking about egc w/o continuity to the neutral now we are saying the inspectors do not have time to find this violation with a simple test with the power on.

Also I wonder how many electricians go back to do do a test to be sure all is was well with their work after the C OF O has been issued? Speak up if yopu are one. Seems to me that the home owner is left to make sure that there are no code violations. Sorry for rambling. ( still looking to find spell check here I really need help w/spelling)
 
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