Gfci won't trip

[K8MHZ]

I get paid by the hour - or somebody does. I haven't had that big a problem finding GFCIs, and I have boldly tripped quite a few.

I have spent hours looking for them and found some of them outside, in a garden, on a short post overgrown with ivy.

Probably the worst was at a house I moved into. The owner, my girlfriend at the time, had the house built new about 5 years prior. There was no power in the bathroom receptacles when I came on the scene. I scoured the house for a solution. She was used to it so she just told me she could live with it.

Two years later, I was moving a big shelf in the garage. Lo and behold, behind the shelf was a GFCI receptacle. I pushed the reset button and all the bathroom receptacles started working again.

:rant:

 

[iwire]

It looks like it means UL 1436.

So, what if all that is on the device, like an Ideal tester, is the UL mark and no reference to what UL standard is being used?

I made an honest attempt to find such a tester and while I could find some that where UL listed I could not verify the standard. I checked Greenlee, Ideal, Amprobe and some no name brands.

Maybe you can have better luck.

 

[K8MHZ]

I made an honest attempt to find such a tester and while I could find some that where UL listed I could not verify the standard. I checked Greenlee, Ideal, Amprobe and some no name brands.

Maybe you can have better luck.

All I could find was this, from Ideal:

UL-1436 for AFCI, GFCI & Outlet

http://www.idealind.com/media/pdfs/products/instructions/nd-5481-4_61-164-165_instructions.pdf

I found several testers that were UL listed, but they did not specify what UL listing they were talking about.

 

[iwire]

Putting aside OSHA how are you getting around 110.3(B)?



Honestly I really don't understand this strong desire to do the test in a way that requires more tools. It just makes no sense to me.

 

[roger]

Putting aside OSHA how are you getting around 110.3(B)?



Honestly I really don't understand this strong desire to do the test in a way that requires more tools. It just makes no sense to me.

Same here.

Simplicity seems to be a forgotten concept.

Roger

 

[kwired]

I get paid by the hour - or somebody does. I haven't had that big a problem finding GFCIs, and I have boldly tripped quite a few. Better to know the protection works and spend a little time showing a homeowner where to find it on their own the next time.

I will offer a counter-scenario that might sell a few plug testers; it happened a few months ago. Joe Homeowner decided to save a dollar and finish his basement without a permit. The city caught wind and asked him to have a master electrician sign off on the installation.

When I arrived, I found GFCI breakers instead of AFCI as required. He didn't realize there was a difference. As I walked around testing receptacles, I noted that the right lamp of my tester was ever so slightly dimmer than usual. It occurred to me that I could test the EGC to some extent by testing the GFCI breaker with my plug tester. It didn't trip.

None of the grounds were truly in wire connectors, they were just lightly wrapped. Granted, a visual inspection of the interior of the boxes would have found the problem too, but it happened to expose the problem in a hurry; the GFCI test button on the breaker would not have found it.

Anecdotal? Sure. But it's a $5 tester that can tell you a lot for the price.

I don't make too many mistakes but have found miswired receptacles occasionally by testing with such a tester whether GFCI protected or not. My inspectors usually plug in similar tester to check polarity and will hit their GFCI test button on receptacles that require protection. Are they testing the GFCI or checking that the receptacle has GFCI protection? They usually do press test buttons as well from what I recall. On top of that if I know this is what they are going to do when they come why wouldn't I do same test myself after energizing - if I have a "fail" with it then they likely will as well.

Putting aside OSHA how are you getting around 110.3(B)?



Honestly I really don't understand this strong desire to do the test in a way that requires more tools. It just makes no sense to me.

So you trip the GFCI with it's own test button per instructions, how do you determine without another tool that there is no voltage to the receptacle or anything connected to load side terminals?

 

[peter d]

I have spent hours looking for them and found some of them outside, in a garden, on a short post overgrown with ivy.

Probably the worst was at a house I moved into. The owner, my girlfriend at the time, had the house built new about 5 years prior. There was no power in the bathroom receptacles when I came on the scene. I scoured the house for a solution. She was used to it so she just told me she could live with it.

Two years later, I was moving a big shelf in the garage. Lo and behold, behind the shelf was a GFCI receptacle. I pushed the reset button and all the bathroom receptacles started working again.

:rant:

My friends bought a California tract house in 1998, back then California was one code cycle behind so it was built to the 1993 NEC. The house had one 15 amp circuit that served the garage, bathroom and outdoor receptacles, and the GFCI was located in - you guessed it - the garage.

 

[iwire]

I have spent hours looking for them and found some of them outside, in a garden, on a short post overgrown with ivy.

Probably the worst was at a house I moved into. The owner, my girlfriend at the time, had the house built new about 5 years prior. There was no power in the bathroom receptacles when I came on the scene. I scoured the house for a solution. She was used to it so she just told me she could live with it.

Two years later, I was moving a big shelf in the garage. Lo and behold, behind the shelf was a GFCI receptacle. I pushed the reset button and all the bathroom receptacles started working again.

:rant:

I am having a hard time understanding how finding a GFCI in a normal or even large home can take so long.


I would gladly swap finding a GFCI device in 5,000 sq ft home than just finding a branch circuit breaker in the 100,000-300,000 sq ft of a Lowes, Target, Wegmans etc. some of these places even locate them up at the deck on bus ducts.

 

[peter d]

I am having a hard time understanding how finding a GFCI in a normal or even large home can take so long.


I would gladly swap finding a GFCI device in 5,000 sq ft home than just finding a branch circuit breaker in the 100,000-300,000 sq ft of a Lowes, Target, Wegmans etc. some of these places even locate them up at the deck on bus ducts.

:lol::lol: Good perspective. :thumbsup:

Don't forget tripped breakers/blown fuses in refrigeration racks too.

 

[George Stolz]

I am having a hard time understanding how finding a GFCI in a normal or even large home can take so long.

Agreed - although if I show up and the garage looks like a bomb went off, I will be judicious in my tester use to avoid moving all their stuff to get to the wall.

 

[K8MHZ]

I am having a hard time understanding how finding a GFCI in a normal or even large home can take so long.


I would gladly swap finding a GFCI device in 5,000 sq ft home than just finding a branch circuit breaker in the 100,000-300,000 sq ft of a Lowes, Target, Wegmans etc. some of these places even locate them up at the deck on bus ducts.

Until I did resi for a while, I would have said the same.

Did you read the part where I found GFCI receptacles totally overgrown by vegetation, outside, in a garden that protected the condos bathrooms?

The shelf in question was very large, almost looked built in. Home owner (don't want to call the mother of my daughter a HO) had no idea there was a receptacle behind the shelf. Same with the garden receptacles, the condo owners had no clue there were GFCI's hidden in their garden.

At least when working commercial projects, you don't have to justify to the owner why it took a couple hours to locate a breaker. Homeowners aren't like that. They think we are supposed to take the hit when we can't find receptacles that were hidden by humans or nature. Especially when all that needs to be done is a reset.

 

[George Stolz]

At least when working commercial projects, you don't have to justify to the owner why it took a couple hours to locate a breaker. Homeowners aren't like that. They think we are supposed to take the hit when we can't find receptacles that were hidden by humans or nature. Especially when all that needs to be done is a reset.

Having recently taken over as the service manager for the company I work for, I typically have to deal with the HO GFCI tripped calls and also customers questioning the time invoiced for tasks. If the tech in the field fails to keep the customer apprised of the situation during the call, it generally leads to a phone call, regardless of how justified the time spent. Resi or commercial.

It always seems to come down to selling the sizzle, not the steak. The job would be a million times easier if we just dealt with wiring, but introduce people into the equation and...

 

[K8MHZ]

Having recently taken over as the service manager for the company I work for, I typically have to deal with the HO GFCI tripped calls and also customers questioning the time invoiced for tasks. If the tech in the field fails to keep the customer apprised of the situation during the call, it generally leads to a phone call, regardless of how justified the time spent. Resi or commercial.

It always seems to come down to selling the sizzle, not the steak. The job would be a million times easier if we just dealt with wiring, but introduce people into the equation and...

Which is exactly why I am not an EC. I had my fill of 'selling the sizzle' when I owned a car repair facility. I'm not a good sales person.

I see the EC's I have worked for have to beg for their money and justify why we don't work for slave wages. I get paid by the hour, and I like it that way.

 

[kwired]

You have to learn the hard way at least once.

After spending time trying to figure out why I had no power at a receptacle in a manufactured home one time - it should have occurred to me early on that there was likely a GFCI upstream somewhere as it was a bath receptacle (home from mid to late 1980's), I kept getting hung up on the fact there was no continuity between neutral and ground conductors - but that would be normal if GFCI is tripped.

Now if I run into no power and no neutral to ground continuity, one of the first things I consider is that there may be a tripped GFCI, and have saved time spent taking things apart or attempting to trace concealed wiring by looking for GFCI's first.

 

[ptonsparky]

My office help has started to ask customers to look for a tripped GFCI first and call back if they still have a problem. I do not like to drive 30 minutes to push the reset for something that happens once every 5 years.

 

[ramsy]

Putting aside OSHA how are you getting around 110.3(B)?

Honestly I really don't understand this strong desire to do the test in a way that requires more tools. It just makes no sense to me.

Same here.

Simplicity seems to be a forgotten concept.

It is simple. The fancy tool is for customers that ask too many questions.

Stand over my shoulder asking questions, if I can't concentrate, your help is needed to get values of all plugs in the house with fancy tool.

I get back to work, and customer is happy playing with fancy tool.

 

[ramsy]

Here is a link to one OSHA document on this issue.

Nice find Don.

 

[Sierrasparky]

My office help has started to ask customers to look for a tripped GFCI first and call back if they still have a problem. I do not like to drive 30 minutes to push the reset for something that happens once every 5 years.

I don't mind the part of driving 30-40 min and push a button after just being there for only a few seconds. What I mind is the look and the statement " are you really going to charge me for that"