GFCI

[z-men]

I do the electrical work for this appartment
complex.They have a laundry room for all tenants
They have four gas dryers and four washing
machines in each laundry room.They had a housing
inspector go through the building.She wanted
GFCI receptacles for all these appliances.This
was about a year ago.I replaced the existing
receptacles with GFCI recepts.The manager says
she constantly has to reset some of these receptacles.I never pushed it about the GFCI.
210.8 exception No 2 says I don't need a GFCI.
for these appliances.Am I correct????????????

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

You're right as far as I can see. As you said, 210.8, Exception 2 to (2), or Exc. 2 to (5). Both mention work areas. I find it hard to believe that the laundry area isn't a finished space. Why was the location determined to be damp or wet in the first place?

She wanted GFCI receptacles for all these appliances.This was about a year ago.I replaced the existing receptacles with GFCI recepts.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. You should have stuck in the mud and determined what this "inspector" was thinking when she required this. I can't imagine a scenario where this would be required. Is it on a rooftop?

 

[z-men]

Re: GFCI

This gal works for the city and is called a building inspector.They inspect multifamily dwellings.Two years ago she made them install GFCI receptacles in all the bathrooms and kitchens.I don't see anything wrong with that.I made a lot of money on those 120 units.The place was built in 1960.All that was required at that time for bathrooms & kitchens was a 20 amp circuit with an equipment ground.I have one washing machine that trips the GFCI constantly.There must be a leak to ground in washer.The only thing I can think of to do is install a single receptacle for each machine.If I plug two machines into a duplex I'm still legal.What else can I do to stop this neusance tripping of the GFCI????????????

 

[jimwalker]

Re: GFCI

First lets deal with the triping machine.Have it repaired or replaced as it has leakage.As to the inspector,start by calling her and asking under what laws and regulations is she working under.Possible this is a local thing or goverment housing.They can ammend nec to a higher level of safety.

 

[physis]

Re: GFCI

This "inspector" sounds like these people around here that do these yearly inspection for some government assisted housing authority called "Section 8".

They put people in housing that I couldn't afford and try to make the property owner bring the building up to current building codes every year.

Nothin but the best for people that can't afford it or wont work. (That's a gripe directed at Section 8)

Edit: And people that do work and can afford it.

[ January 22, 2005, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

Jim has a good point. If there is a higher local standard, fighting her won't change it. See what her thought process was, have her quote a code, and see where it goes from there.

 

[physis]

Re: GFCI

From the electricians stand point there's no need to fight it. If it were me I'd try to handle it inexpensively. Those authorities can be down right abusive.

 

[hurk27]

Re: GFCI

We have brand new washer's that the fill valve will trip the GFCI receptacle when it shuts off.

We have a city that try's to require GFCI protection on the washer when a laundry tub is located closer than 6' to the washer receptacle. And now the "2005" will also require this which I think we will have some problems. Try to get behind a stacked washer and dryer that is in a closet just big enough to fit them in. and try to reset the GFCI when it's full of water?

I do not know why the NEC has exception to allow a regular receptacle in a basement or garage but if within 6' of a sink the washer receptacle has to be GFCI protected?
I wonder if it was an over site?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

210.8 is titled "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection for Personnel." If there is a dedicated receptacle for equipment installed per code, the equipment doesn't need the protection. The protection is for personnel using cord and plug connected equipment.

The washer automatically fills and empties itself when plugged in, with the door shut. Anyone who starts a load of laundry, unplugs the washer midcycle to plug in a drill and drops the drill into a open, full washer tub is eligible for the Darwin award, IMO.

[ January 23, 2005, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI

Originally posted by georgestolz:
210.8 is titled "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Protection for Personnel." If there is a dedicated receptacle for equipment installed per code, the equipment doesn't need the protection.

George that is not correct, consider 210.8(A)(4) crawl spaces.

An receptacle outlet in a crawl space must be GFCI protected even if it is a dedicated receptacle for a sump pump.

Or consider 210.(B)(3) non dwelling kitchens, all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt outlets must be protected by a GFCI, this applies if they are dedicated or not.

The idea is still protection of personal but not just at the outlet itself. This protection of personal extends to equipment that may have a faulty grounding conductor along with a ungrounded conductor fault ground.

People had been killed by faulty kitchen equipment so the GFCI requirement went in.


Now for 2005 that extends to vending machines.

Bob

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

Bob, there ya go, shooting holes through my blanket statements again.

What is the reasoning behind pick and choose GFI protection then? Are people in their personal kitchens safer (as in, behave more responsibly) than people in a public kitchen? Or were words left out to keep it short?

The lack of crawl space exceptions I could partially understand, because if you brought something into the crawl space to use and all there was is a sump outlet, yeah, I can envision someone not wanting to string 50' of cord in a crawl space when there's an outlet right there.

I think that this particular issue comes down to this: One would be hard pressed to define a washing machine as a Laundry Sink per 210.8(A)(7). A washer is not a sink. When the washer is in operation, it's full. When it's finished, it's empty.

At least the code specifically addresses vending machines. But not a word is said about protecting washing machines, in the context you're painting on it.

[ January 23, 2005, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[charlie]

Re: GFCI

people in their personal kitchens safer than people in a public kitchen?

Yes they are George. In a commercial area, there is more likely to be properly grounded receptacles and cords with proper grounding pins. Additionally, where is the body count? The body count was shown to the Code Making Panel for the 2005 cycle and now GFCIs will be required in kitchens. Direct wired kitchen equipment is not required to have GFCI protection.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI

Originally posted by georgestolz:
What is the reasoning behind pick and choose GFI protection then? Are people in their personal kitchens safer (as in, behave more responsibly) than people in a public kitchen?

I don't know the reasoning, I do know that a dwelling unit kitchen receptacle outlet that serves a counter top must be GFCI protected even if it is for a dedicated appliance. [/b][/quote]

Lets say the washer was located right next to a wet bar sink. then it would have to be GFCI protected and their are no exceptions to circumvent that.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

Charlie, only receptacles serving countertops are required to be GFI-protected in residential kitchens. Every receptacle in a commercial kitchen needs to be by the wording. (Given your quick response, I'd imagine I didn't have my parenthesis up before you replied. )

I don't know the reasoning, I do know that a dwelling unit kitchen receptacle outlet that serves a counter top must be GFCI protected even if it is for a dedicated appliance.

But my point was to illustrate the disparity in the requirements between commercial and residential kitchens. A disposal outlet under the sink in a commercial kitchen would be GFI protected, in a house, it wouldn't.

Lets say the washer was located right next to a wet bar sink. then it would have to be GFCI protected and their are no exceptions to circumvent that.

Okay, from left to right: A 36" sink butted against the wall closest to the door, with a washing machine beside it. The outlet for the washer could be outside the 6' requirement for sink GFI protection, but inside the 6' appliance receptacle requirement of 210.50(C).

Blanket statement, ho ho ho...

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Okay, from left to right: A 36" sink butted against the wall closest to the door, with a washing machine beside it. The outlet for the washer could be outside the 6' requirement for sink GFI protection, but inside the 6' appliance receptacle requirement of 210.50(C).

Blanket statement, ho ho ho...

Hey we have it easy, many European homes use a GFCI main breaker for the entire service.

I believe the trip level is in the 20 ma range but don't quote me on that.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

Hey, Bob, we're talking pure code not quality!

On GFI services, why is there that requirement for big services in the NEC? What does it do?

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI

Originally posted by georgestolz:
On GFI services, why is there that requirement for big services in the NEC? What does it do?

George we have to be careful here we are not talking about the same thing.

210.8 and the Europeans main are examples of GFCI protected equipment.

The requirement you bring up now is not GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) protection it is GFP (Ground Fault Protection).

230.95 Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment.
Ground-fault protection of equipment shall be provided for solidly grounded wye electrical services of more than 150 volts to ground but not exceeding 600 volts phase-to-phase for each service disconnect rated 1000 amperes or more.
The rating of the service disconnect shall be considered to be the rating of the largest fuse that can be installed or the highest continuous current trip setting for which the actual overcurrent device installed in a circuit breaker is rated or can be adjusted.

215.10 Ground-Fault Protection of Equipment.
Each feeder disconnect rated 1000 amperes or more and installed on solidly grounded wye electrical systems of more than 150 volts to ground, but not exceeding 600 volts phase-to-phase, shall be provided with ground-fault protection of equipment in accordance with the provisions of 230.95.

The idea here is not protection of personal but protection of equipment.

At these levels and above a standard overcurrent device might not open during a ground fault.

The conductor and grounded metal may just 'blow' out of the way before a standard OCPD can open.

The trip level of these GFP systems can very greatly and is determined by the engineer.

The trip level is very roughly 1/4 of the service or feeder size.

A 2000 amp service may end up with a GFP setting of 500 amps. There are also time delay settings etc...

[ January 23, 2005, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI

Yeah, we're on the same page, I just changed direction.

Originally posted by iwire:
At these levels and above a standard overcurrent device might not open during a ground fault.

The conductor and grounded metal may just 'blow' out of the way before a standard OCPD can open.

Why is this?

 

[crossman]

Re: GFCI

Example: 1000 amp OCP on 480/277 feeder

Fork lift smashes the feeder and "A" phase makes contact with the EMT. EMT path back to the source has, for the sake of this argument, 1 ohm of resistance. Does enough current flow to trip the 1000 amp OCP? These large feeders have the capability of producing some very ugly results when the fault current is less than the OCP setting. Hence the need for GFPE.

 

[crossman]

Re: GFCI

BTW, GFCIs save lives. I recently put together a presentation on 2005 Code changes for state licensing CEUs and did some research on electrocution fatalities to include in the course.

Boat hoist fatality = improper grounding of hoist motor
Vending machine fatality = broken ground prong and metal leg cut into cord
Commercial kitchen fatality = not sure of exact cicumstance, but was a portable appliance

These are all taken care of in the 2005 code. also, any outdoor receptacles accesible to the public are required to be GFCI. This is all in 2005 210.8(B)

I think the trend will be for more and more items to require GFCI in the future. Especially cord and plug connected equipment, not just extension cord use.