Gfci

[topend]

Current job requires that I correct panel violations in a house that is for sale. There is a single pole gfci breaker with two current carrying conductors under its lug with their shared neutral terminated at the breaker also. These are two seperate 120v circuits. Will a 2 pole gfci breaker work?

Thanks.
Rich

 

[480sparky]

You mention shared neutral. Is this a MWBC that got put onto a single-pole GFI breaker? If so, a 2-pole GFI breaker would work.

Unless the two wires require seperate circuits, pigtail them into one wire that goes to the breaker. Inexpensive and you're done..

 

[Karl H]

I wouldn't put those two circuits on a two pole breaker until I was sure
those two circuits weren't tied together somewhere in the house.
"Ring" those circuits out first before installing them on a two pole breaker.

The easiest way is (as 480Sparky said). Wire nut the two circuits and pigtail
to the breaker.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Current job requires that I correct panel violations in a house that is for sale. There is a single pole gfci breaker with two current carrying conductors under its lug with their shared neutral terminated at the breaker also. These are two seperate 120v circuits. Will a 2 pole gfci breaker work?

Thanks.
Rich

Sounds like you have two runs that are connected to one breaker. Even if it is a mwbc and the black and red are connected together all you need to do is pigtail---unless of course the circuit is overloaded and must be separated.

So is it a MWBC? or is it two different runs terminated at the breaker? Do they need to be separated for code compliance?

 

[steelersman]

Sounds like you have two runs that are connected to one breaker. Even if it is a mwbc and the black and red are connected together all you need to do is pigtail---unless of course the circuit is overloaded and must be separated.

So is it a MWBC? or is it two different runs terminated at the breaker? Do they need to be separated for code compliance?

But if it is a MWBC I would think that you wouldn't want the 2 circuits on the same buss in the panel as this could put too much current on the neutral.

 

[topend]

Thanks everyone. Yes, it is a multi-wire branch circuit (12/3 rx w/g). I guess the best thing to do would be to crawl under the deck and connect everything to one circuit at the first junction box, but there's a coupla feet of snow on the ground and wouldnt that be the same as the pigtail solution? Also, don't know if/where it is in the code book, but I always thought that you couldn't make any wire nut "pigtails" in the panel (although crimp butt splices were OK).

 

[480sparky]

.... but I always thought that you couldn't make any wire nut "pigtails" in the panel (although crimp butt splices were OK).

Pigtailing would be a whole lot less work than crawling under a deck! Plus, it's legal.

 

[celtic]

Also, don't know if/where it is in the code book, but I always thought that you couldn't make any wire nut "pigtails" in the panel (although crimp butt splices were OK).

312.8 is what you want to read.

 

[Karl H]

It's not really a MWBC if both ungrounded conductors are under one breaker
on one phase.
Making splices in a panel is not a NEC violation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

But if it is a MWBC I would think that you wouldn't want the 2 circuits on the same buss in the panel as this could put too much current on the neutral.

Well the problem would not be an overload if it were the same circuit but you would have a parallel conductor which would not be legal so I guess if it is a 12/3 cable I would do one of two things. Edit-- guess it isn't a parallel conductor if they are not splice together.

First I would see if I could use 2 GFCI receptacles after the 12/3 splits and use a standard DP breaker.

Second-- tie the wires together at the panel and pigtail to the breaker as long as the circuit is not needed for code to have both circuits

 

[steelersman]

It's not really a MWBC if both ungrounded conductors are under one breaker
on one phase.
Making splices in a panel is not a NEC violation.

But why would you have both ungrounded conductors on the same breaker?

 

[Karl H]

But why would you have both ungrounded conductors on the same breaker?

I wouldn't put two ungrounded conductors under one breaker,
I would have pig tailed them. If your a service guy you very quickly
learn,trying to figure out the "Logic" of the original install,is a
serious waste of time. Plus if your smart ,you'll never figure out how to be that dumb. In service, you just focus on how to make an existing
violation compliant. A MWBC landed on a single pole breaker isn't
a MWBC anymore. 310.4 isn't a issue here. Parallel of these circuits probably
wasn't to increase the ampacity of the circuit. But, I 've been wrong before.

 

[steelersman]

I wouldn't put two ungrounded conductors under one breaker,
I would have pig tailed them. If your a service guy you very quickly
learn,trying to figure out the "Logic" of the original install,is a
serious waste of time. Plus if your smart ,you'll never figure out how to be that dumb. In service, you just focus on how to make an existing
violation compliant. A MWBC landed on a single pole breaker isn't
a MWBC anymore. 310.4 isn't a issue here. Parallel of these circuits probably
wasn't to increase the ampacity of the circuit. But, I 've been wrong before.

I think I'm a little lost here. I just can't think of an install where you would run a 12-3 and put the black and red under the same breaker. If these are actually supplying 2 seperate circuits it then just creates one large circuit. Which could possibly overload the single shared neutral conductor.

 

[480sparky]

I think I'm a little lost here. I just can't think of an install where you would run a 12-3 and put the black and red under the same breaker. If these are actually supplying 2 seperate circuits it then just creates one large circuit. Which could possibly overload the single shared neutral conductor.

If they're both on the same SP breaker, you can't overload the noodle.

 

[Cow]

Unless the two wires require seperate circuits, pigtail them into one wire that goes to the breaker. Inexpensive and you're done..

I'd probably go with this idea...:wink:

 

[Karl H]

I think I'm a little lost here. I just can't think of an install where you would run a 12-3 and put the black and red under the same breaker. If these are actually supplying 2 seperate circuits it then just creates one large circuit. Which could possibly overload the single shared neutral conductor.[/QUOT

I can't either. But, then again ,you can't supply two circuits from
one single pole circuit breaker.
BTW even if it is two ungrounded conductors sharing one neutral conductor
and the ungrounded conductors are fed from one breaker it is still one circuit.
The load on the ungrounded conductors will be the same load on the neutral
conductor. The neutral will not see more load than the ungrounded conductors.

 

[infinity]

Since they're on one single pole breaker now I would just correct the wiring issue and put them back on the same SP CB unless someone is asking for two circuits.

 

[suemarkp]

This could easily happen if circuits were added, the panel was full, and someone decided it was easier to combine two circuits onto the same breaker. Whether it was a MWBC or two separate ones doesn't make any difference. Some breakers (Sq D QO, Cutler Hammer CH) can have two wires in their breaker lug. Then, at some point a GFCI became a requirement. Why they didn't install a receptacle type GFCI downstream, I don't know (perhaps the neutral was shared too long before branching to two separate ones). But the CH and QO GFCI breakers are not listed for multiple wires in the breaker lug, so you'd now have to pigtail this.

An electrician could try to track all this down and do it better. But it could take hours. Easier just to pigtail and call it a day.

 

[Karl H]

Since they're on one single pole breaker now I would just correct the wiring issue and put them back on the same SP CB unless someone is asking for two circuits.

Yeah, OK, make it look so simple!!!!
Mr. Smart Electrician Guy! I bet your going to tell the OP
to simply close the cover of the panel after he is done making his
splices as well.

 

[Karl H]

This could easily happen if circuits were added, the panel was full, and someone decided it was easier to combine two circuits onto the same breaker. Whether it was a MWBC or two separate ones doesn't make any difference. Some breakers (Sq D QO, Cutler Hammer CH) can have two wires in their breaker lug. Then, at some point a GFCI became a requirement. Why they didn't install a receptacle type GFCI downstream, I don't know (perhaps the neutral was shared too long before branching to two separate ones). But the CH and QO GFCI breakers are not listed for multiple wires in the breaker lug, so you'd now have to pigtail this.

An electrician could try to track all this down and do it better. But it could take hours. Easier just to pigtail and call it a day.

I already tried to get past the ,"Panel was full" scenrio and that tandems
couldn't be used. I still couldn't think of why the un-used conductor
wasn't just capped off. Let's say, you just used one circuit from an unused
250v receptical to gain space in the panel. Then again ,I have training,
and I've learned, the smarter I get ,the dumber I sound.