GFCI's and outdoor cooking facilities

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goldstar

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
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Electrical Contractor
One of my biggest accounts is a children's day camp facility that has a food service pavilion. Various food items are kept in freezers and/or refrigerators in the cooking area. ALL the 120V receptacles in that area are GFCI protected. On occasion either a freezer or refrigerator develops a ground fault problem and trips the GFCI. Sometimes it is caught early and no food is lost but other times it is not. The camp owner doesn't want to put up with the inconvenience anymore and wants me to remove the GFCI receptacles and install std. ones. An EC friend of mine who filled in for me one day when I was on vacation, told the owner that he could replace the GFCI's with single receptacles. I believe the GFCI's have to stay. Am I wrong ?
 
rjniles said:
Suggest GFCIs with alarms to owner.. Don't remove GFCI, you don't want the liability.

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My thoughts exactly. With respect to the alarm GFCI's, at first look this seemed like a good idea but these units could trip in the middle of the night. They could still lose food. Thanks for your reply.
 
isolation xfmr to fridge? No idea what code says about that, but effective and safe solution.
 
You have a a children’s day camp and he wants to remove the GFCIs?

No. I don’t care even if you do have some archaic ill thought exception. No.

You are correct, the GFCIs need to stay.

IMO, put them on any receptacle that is not now protected. IDC if they were grandfathered in at some time.
 
Why are they tripping?

Actual ground faults within equipment, moisture getting into places it shouldn't?

Surges or inductive kickback?

Longer distances between GFCI and the equipment yielding enough capacitive leakage to cause tripping?

Poorly maintained equipment that introduces higher risk, like damaged cords or enclosures of electrical components.


Are these refrigerators or freezers even intended for the environment they are in? Maybe need to build a room around them somehow, even if not totally enclosed something that keeps the weather off them better than whatever you have now is a start.

Put them inside and you might not need GFCI's, depending on other conditions.
 
goldstar said:
One of my biggest accounts is a children's day camp facility that has a food service pavilion. Various food items are kept in freezers and/or refrigerators in the cooking area. ALL the 120V receptacles in that area are GFCI protected. On occasion either a freezer or refrigerator develops a ground fault problem and trips the GFCI. Sometimes it is caught early and no food is lost but other times it is not. The camp owner doesn't want to put up with the inconvenience anymore and wants me to remove the GFCI receptacles and install std. ones. An EC friend of mine who filled in for me one day when I was on vacation, told the owner that he could replace the GFCI's with single receptacles. I believe the GFCI's have to stay. Am I wrong ?
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That used to be allowed, not anymore
 
goldstar said:
My thoughts exactly. With respect to the alarm GFCI's, at first look this seemed like a good idea but these units could trip in the middle of the night. They could still lose food. Thanks for your reply.
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Would it be more acceptable if there was a text message, phone call, and/or email to alert them when the refrigerators/freezers lose power? That way they'd have a much better chance to save the food.
If they have wi-fi there are various smart devices that can be used to send an alert. If they don't have wi-fi there are options that use a cellular network such as:

https://www.marcellpro.com
https://www.isocket3g.com/en/

You'd have to put together some relays so that one or more of the multiple GFCIs tripping would drop power to the monitoring unit and so trigger the alarm.
The cellular based units have the advantage that they don't depend on power from the POCO or a UPS to keep a local wi-fi network active for sending a "no power" alert.
 
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synchro said:
Would it be more acceptable if there was a text message, phone call, and/or email to alert them when the refrigerators/freezers lose power? That way they'd have a much better chance to save the food.
If they have wi-fi there are various smart devices that can be used to send an alert. If they don't have wi-fi there are options that use a cellular network such as:

https://www.marcellpro.com
https://www.isocket3g.com/en/

You'd have to put together some relays so that one or more of the multiple GFCIs tripping would drop power to the monitoring unit and so trigger the alarm.
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If spoiled food is the concern, one should monitor both power and temperature of those units. Failure of a something in the refrigerator itself can still mean a warm interior and not trip the incoming power supply.

There might even be new refrigerators that already have on board capability of sending you such warnings.
 
goldstar said:
One of my biggest accounts is a children's day camp facility that has a food service pavilion. Various food items are kept in freezers and/or refrigerators in the cooking area.
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I would like to know more about this "food service pavilion". How weather tight is it? What kind of freezers and refrigerators are they using? Residential or commercial?

Has it been inspected by the health department?

My experience with places like this is it's usually a damp shack with somebodies old refrigerator and freezer.

I agree with the suggestions for power and temperature monitoring but that might not be practical because of the equipment they may be using.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
I would like to know more about this "food service pavilion". How weather tight is it? What kind of freezers and refrigerators are they using? Residential or commercial?

Has it been inspected by the health department?

My experience with places like this is it's usually a damp shack with somebodies old refrigerator and freezer.

I agree with the suggestions for power and temperature monitoring but that might not be practical because of the equipment they may be using.

-Hal
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Power and temp monitoring possibly becomes a little more expensive. Something like Sensaphone systems are quite capable of doing this though.

For $25 Amazon has an Accurite product that has wireless temp sensor and remote receiver with temp alarm. If it for something that is unattended for extended times may not be what one wants, but if someone is within range of the system fairly regularly but not necessarily in the fridge/freezer all that often it still alerts you it is too warm.

Nice thing about power failure alarm is it notifies you before contents begin to warm up when there is power failure.
 
kwired said:
Power and temp monitoring possibly becomes a little more expensive. Something like Sensaphone systems are quite capable of doing this though.

For $25 Amazon has an Accurite product that has wireless temp sensor and remote receiver with temp alarm. If it for something that is unattended for extended times may not be what one wants, but if someone is within range of the system fairly regularly but not necessarily in the fridge/freezer all that often it still alerts you it is too warm.

Nice thing about power failure alarm is it notifies you before contents begin to warm up when there is power failure.
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Problem with products like that with a wireless temp sensor is that the sensor needs to go inside the refrigerator or freezer. Those products are designed for showing the temperature outside of your house. Put it in a refrigerator, because of the steel cabinet I'm pretty sure it's not going to be heard by the receiver. The way to do it then is with a sensor that uses a wire or capillary with the actual sensor outside. That means you have to drill through the door or side and many times the condensing coils are located in the sides.

As was mentioned, power failure isn't the only reason for a refrigerator of freezer to warm up, so just relying on that isn't a good idea. You want to monitor the temperature.

-Hal
 
All great observations for someone who is not on the site
kwired said:
Why are they tripping?

Actual ground faults within equipment, moisture getting into places it shouldn't?

Surges or inductive kickback?

Longer distances between GFCI and the equipment yielding enough capacitive leakage to cause tripping?

Poorly maintained equipment that introduces higher risk, like damaged cords or enclosures of electrical components.


Are these refrigerators or freezers even intended for the environment they are in? Maybe need to build a room around them somehow, even if not totally enclosed something that keeps the weather off them better than whatever you have now is a start.

Put them inside and you might not need GFCI's, depending on other conditions.
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These units are in a pavilion that has only overhead protection. The refers and freezers run 24-7 from approx. May thru Sept. In the fall and winter months they are left in the positions they are currently in. That means if there is rain or snow in conjunction with wind they are dowsed with moisture and/or snow. When they try to turn the units on in May the GFI problems start.

IMHO the GFCI receptacles need to be there because it they are in an outdoor facility (irrespective of what appliances they have plugged into them). If they choose not to maintain or protect these units from rain or moisture that's not my problem. They continue to pay me to troubleshoot the problem every year at start-up and then ask if there's anything I can do about it. I say no - get the refers serviced. Then the appliance service guy comes in, dries out the unit(s) and tells the owner a bs story and that it's the electrician's problem. And the beat goes on and the $$$ keep coming in. I don't like spending the owner's $$ but he needs to tarp these units.
 
hbiss said:
Problem with products like that with a wireless temp sensor is that the sensor needs to go inside the refrigerator or freezer. Those products are designed for showing the temperature outside of your house. Put it in a refrigerator, because of the steel cabinet I'm pretty sure it's not going to be heard by the receiver. The way to do it then is with a sensor that uses a wire or capillary with the actual sensor outside. That means you have to drill through the door or side and many times the condensing coils are located in the sides.

As was mentioned, power failure isn't the only reason for a refrigerator of freezer to warm up, so just relying on that isn't a good idea. You want to monitor the temperature.

-Hal
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This one is not like that, it is designed for use with fridges and freezers

https://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-Refr...ocphy=9017499&hvtargid=pla-273908654109&psc=1
 
goldstar said:
They continue to pay me to troubleshoot the problem every year at start-up and then ask if there's anything I can do about it. I say no - get the refers serviced. Then the appliance service guy comes in, dries out the unit(s) and tells the owner a bs story and that it's the electrician's problem. And the beat goes on and the $$$ keep coming in. I don't like spending the owner's $$ but he needs to tarp these units.
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Pretty much what I expected. These are residential/consumer appliances right? The guy is an idiot. I like taking money from those people. He doesn't need to tarp them, he needs to build a proper building for the kitchen.

I'll ask again, has the health department ever been there? This guy deserves to be shut down before he gets those kids sick.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
I'll ask again, has the health department ever been there?
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Yes, the health dept. inspects at the start of each season and the camp passes inspection. In any cases where it doesn't the problem is corrected immediately.
This guy deserves to be shut down before he gets those kids sick.

-Hal
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Don't wish that on me Hal. This is one of my biggest accounts.:happyyes: I certainly don't want anyone to get sick but I also don't want to lose $$$.:roll:
 
hbiss said:
Problem with products like that with a wireless temp sensor is that the sensor needs to go inside the refrigerator or freezer. Those products are designed for showing the temperature outside of your house. Put it in a refrigerator, because of the steel cabinet I'm pretty sure it's not going to be heard by the receiver. The way to do it then is with a sensor that uses a wire or capillary with the actual sensor outside. That means you have to drill through the door or side and many times the condensing coils are located in the sides.

As was mentioned, power failure isn't the only reason for a refrigerator of freezer to warm up, so just relying on that isn't a good idea. You want to monitor the temperature.

-Hal
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The one I was looking at was designed and marketed for use with a typical household refrigerator, has two sensors - one for fridge one for freezer and a master unit with a display for each sensor.

As I said this may not be ideal if no one is in vicinity of the refrigerator on a regular basis, especially at some remote pavillion on a camp. But if the building the fridge is in is occupied frequent enough, it says it has 75 foot range so you probably can monitor a fridge in a room that is frequently occupied without much issues.
 
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