GFI from 1978

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Brian Judge

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We have a home built under the NEC 1976 edition (we think). A home inspecter is insisting we correct our GFI "problem" before a sale can be completed to to a new owner. All bathroom GFI (3), one exterior outlet and the kitchen countertop outlets (3) are on the same GFI curcuit; assumingly since when one trips they all trip at one 20 amp breaker. The house has gone under many simple remodels but no real tear out. Did the 1976 code allow for this type of wiring? When did it change if this inspector is corect that we have a "problem"; assuminly in todays standards of construction.
 
Yes the code did allow this.

As far as the HI insisting....well they have no real authority to force you to do anything.

As I understand it you can;


Negotiate a reduction in price with the buyers (if you want)

Or

Fix it to todays standards (if you want)

Or

Tell the HI to pound sand and the buyers can either accept that or move on.
 
This may help you a bit, I have no idea where you would find a 1970s NEC other than E-Bay.

brian john said:
1976-exterior outlets I show this in my 1971 NEC 210-22 (d)
1979-bathroom outlets I show this in my 1978 NEC 210-8 (a) (1)
1982-garages I show this in my 1981 210-8 (a) (2)
1999-KITCHEN I show this in my 1996 210-8 (A) (5)
Click to expand...
 
Brian Judge said:
how can i review the 1976 code. I cannot find a copy on line?
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Doubtful.

Up until recently (2005 edition), the NEC was simply not available on-line.


Like Iwire said, the HI has no authority to insist you do anything.

I guestion why the HI - paid for by the BUYER - is telling the SELLER anything...the "usual" flow is that that the HI report is recieved by the buyers, they review it and have their atty request any changes in the terms of sale to your atty. Your atty ASKS you how you want to handle it.
 
I think the question centers on, not the use of GFIs, rather, what all can be connected to a 20 Amp circuit that serves the kitchen counter.

We had a similar question like this that concerned a home built in 1960.

I think the answer is the same here.
Brian Judge said:
All bathroom GFI (3), one exterior outlet and the kitchen countertop outlets (3) are on the same GFI circuit; assumingly since when one trips they all trip at one 20 amp breaker.
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The 1975 NEC says:
1975 NEC

210-25. Receptacle Outlets Required. Receptacle outlets shall be installed where specified in (a) through (c) below. . .

(b) Dwelling-Type Occupancies. . . .In kitchen and dining areas a receptacle outlet shall be installed at each counter space wider than 12 inches. Counter top spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate counter top spaces. Receptacles rendered inaccessible by the installation of stationary appliances shall not be considered as these required outlets.
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Also:
1975 NEC

220-3. Branch Circuits Required. . . .

. . .(b) Small Appliance Branch Circuits -- Dwelling Occupancies.
(1) . . . .two or more 20-ampere small appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by Section 210-25(b) for the small appliance loads, including refrigeration equipment, in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, and family room of dwelling occupancies. Such circuits, whether two or more are used, shall have no other outlets.

Exception: A receptacle installed solely for the electric supply to and support of an electric clock in any of these stipulated rooms or outdoor receptacle outlets shall be supplied either by a small appliance branch circuit or by a general purpose branch circuit.
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It sounds to me, from the opening post description, that somebody added the bath receptacles to one of the small appliance circuits.

As you can see from my link to the 1960s house thread above, the "shall have no other outlets" clause was not new when your house was built under the 1975 NEC.
 
IMO someone buying a house built somewhere in the mid 70's doesn't get to ask for these upgrades. The current wiring has existed for over 30 years and the seller should accept things as they are and fix them on his own dime. Whether or not they were code compliant 30+ years ago is irrelevant. The buyer knows he can accept this house "as is" or walk away. Or if the seller is feeling very generous he could rewire the entire place up to the 2005 NEC.
 
If I am buying I can ask for whatever I would like changed, removed, added etc. regardless if it is a new or old home. :smile:

But at the same time the seller can of course tell me forget about it. It is just a matter of how bad they want to unload the property.
 
In my experience, the person that controls the purse strings has a lot of influence.

I often see realty transactions where the underwriter for the lender that is issuing the loan to the buyer will "require" certain things be done, including, but not limited to, removal, repair or improvement of parts of a piece of property, before the monies are released to the lender.

The purse string holder has no "Code" standing, yet, in my opinion, can be as effective as the AHJ.

The history of the local Authority Having Jurisdiction is another matter to consider. Jurisdictions I have experience with have a catch-all phrase such as:
All electric outlets and fixtures shall be installed, maintained, and energized by a source of power in a manner complying with the Electrical Code applicable now or at the time such outlets or fixtures were, or are installed.
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If the house described in the opening post is in a jurisdiction that has a history of continuous National Electrical Code enforcement through the life of the dwelling, it is highly unlikely that adding bathroom outlets to the small appliance circuits was ever compliant with the Code.

The home inspector, noting that the bath outlets are connected to the small appliance circuit, should rightly make note of such. I, for one, would be curious to know how the circuits are spliced together, and would question the workmanship involved. This smacks of a DIY hack.

Caveat Emptor.
 
I come across this about once every two weeks. The meter-main is mounted outside the garage. The twenty amp ckt. hits a GFI in the garage first. It then covers the kitchen and finally the bathroom receptacles. The ckt. will always control the exterior outlets along the the way.

Sometimes, the seller financed HI will call this, but I have never had to change any wiring.

When the ckt. doesn't work reliably. the problem is usually spider/bug crud in an exteerior outlet or a funky GFI.

When I fix the problem, the HI has always backed down.

BTW, in my area, the slow housing market has sellers paying for HI's and insurance policies.

As a service man, much of my work comes from HO insurance policies. I would love to hear from other electricians who do insurance work. There are many challanges. Perhaps we could start a new thread?
 
The code is not retroactive. The HI has no authority to get you to do anything. But if you do decide to replace the outlets with GFCI's you have touched it and you are now responsable for bringing the entire circuit up to 2005 code. As in you will have to seperate the kitchen circuit from the other rooms. If there is only one kitchen circuit then you will also have to run a second one to it. Cheaper to give them a couple of bucks off the asking price.

Colorado Carl
 
Carl Trost said:
But if you do decide to replace the outlets with GFCI's you have touched it and you are now responsable for bringing the entire circuit up to 2005 code.
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Carl I disagree with that, replacing the receptacles does not trigger a re-wire of the entire circuit.
 
Brian Judge said:
We have a home built under the NEC 1976 edition (we think). A home inspecter is insisting we correct our GFI "problem" before a sale can be completed to to a new owner. All bathroom GFI (3), one exterior outlet and the kitchen countertop outlets (3) are on the same GFI curcuit; assumingly since when one trips they all trip at one 20 amp breaker. The house has gone under many simple remodels but no real tear out. Did the 1976 code allow for this type of wiring? When did it change if this inspector is corect that we have a "problem"; assuminly in todays standards of construction.
Click to expand...

I own a home built under the prior (1973?) NEC edition. No GFCI requirement for the kitchen, but the bath & outdoor outlets were all on the same convenience receptacle circuit, on one 15a FPE stab-loc GFCI breaker. This included the receptacles and lights in 2 bathrooms, one outdoor outlet, and 4 of 6 outlets in one bedroom.

While this is no longer the case for me, my uncle is living with the same original circuit arrangement in a similar home a number of towns way. At the time, GFCI breakers or receptacle devices were new, and expensive. Builders of spec. homes and their electricians weren't about to install separate GFCI devices and circuits unnecessarily.

Is it possible your small appliance circuit is separate from the bath / outdoor GFCI circuit? Sometimes when these issues are investigated, details get lost in the translation and the re-telling of the issue from one person to the next.
 
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