GFI required for bath exhaust fan near tub?

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dana1028 said:
Because...
1. The code does not require it.
2. Why should the electrician have to spend extra time and money to install something that is not code required? ... and is not a safety issue.
3. If done wisely, the OP has an opportunity to educate the inspector as to the correct code requirements.
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So, instead of going above and beyond, lets just waste more time and money by doing just the minimum and argueing about it. Seems to me the whole thing would have been settled easier by installing the GFCI breaker. If the fan/light is UL listed to be GFI protected when above the bath/shower than it has to be protected, otherwise it is no longer UL listed for that location. Plus, when argueing point number two on your list. In the long run it isnt wasting any time to install a breaker, and the money is well worth the cost for the added safety.
 
PetrosA said:
When you put the fan/light over the shower or tub, the whole point is to remove steam so the wall don't get moldy, right?
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I'm always a big fan of removing the STINK!:cool: I always try to sell a count down timer so that you can turn it on when you leave the room. That way you don't have to listen to the fans. Unless of course its a panasonic.
 
Bullcub145 said:
So, instead of going above and beyond, lets just waste more time and money by doing just the minimum and argueing about it. Seems to me the whole thing would have been settled easier by installing the GFCI breaker. If the fan/light is UL listed to be GFI protected when above the bath/shower than it has to be protected, otherwise it is no longer UL listed for that location. Plus, when argueing point number two on your list. In the long run it isnt wasting any time to install a breaker, and the money is well worth the cost for the added safety.
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That's not the point. It is one thing to intentionally bid a job above the requirements of the code and do extra things; however in this economy an electrician is frequently bidding against others and must bid to the minimum code requirements.

Now an inspector shows up and says he wants a bunch of other items thrown in [for free] which exceed the requirements of the code.


Are you an advocate of doing whatever the inspector says? Let's take this one more step...now the inspector is telling you to do something that is not only not-code compliant but could create a dangerous situation....no, that is really not that far fetched with combination inspectors.

If you don't establish a working relationship with an inspector by showing him that you really do know the code and are willing to assist him [in his education], it makes it pretty hard to argue with him when he makes an off-the-wall request.

I never consider it a waste of my time to 'argue' with an inspector - I consider it an opportunity to create a good working relationship... it doesn't take long...word gets around... other inspectors soon know you're an electrician who is willing to [in a friendly exchange] work with the inspector to get the job done right.
 
dana1028 said:
That's not the point. It is one thing to intentionally bid a job above the requirements of the code and do extra things; however in this economy an electrician is frequently bidding against others and must bid to the minimum code requirements.

Now an inspector shows up and says he wants a bunch of other items thrown in [for free] which exceed the requirements of the code.


Are you an advocate of doing whatever the inspector says? Let's take this one more step...now the inspector is telling you to do something that is not only not-code compliant but could create a dangerous situation....no, that is really not that far fetched with combination inspectors.

If you don't establish a working relationship with an inspector by showing him that you really do know the code and are willing to assist him [in his education], it makes it pretty hard to argue with him when he makes an off-the-wall request.

I never consider it a waste of my time to 'argue' with an inspector - I consider it an opportunity to create a good working relationship... it doesn't take long...word gets around... other inspectors soon know you're an electrician who is willing to [in a friendly exchange] work with the inspector to get the job done right.
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I respect you oppinion, I am simply stating that if the manufacturer has an ehaust fan/light combination unit to be installed above a bath tub and it is UL listed to be GFCI protected in such a manner then it must be protected. Otherwise it would lose its UL listing for that location. If it doesn't say it needs it then the NEC does not enforce it, there you are correct.
 
I tried to edit my post but it didnt work and I lost it, but I was gonna say, I agree with you when it comes to inspectors. I would have no problem explaining the way the code is applied correctly if he says its not. I haven't had to do so much in my area. Most of the time they are pretty efficient in there inspections and rather fair. You make a lot of good valid points in your arguement, I just simply believe that if the fan/light is UL listed to be protected, and it has already been installed, then the simplest solution would be to install a GFCI breaker and clear up the "Violation", whisch wouldn't be a violation if the manufacturer didn't UL list it as such.
 
Part of my problem with this job is the circuit feeding the bath lights and fan is also feeding the garage the homeowner converted into a bedroom and bath. As required, it is protected by an AFI breaker.
The mechanical contractor installed the fan after my rough in was done and moved it one truss bay closer to the tub than where I expected it to be ( and where my stub out for it was.)
There is nothing in the fan housing calling for gfi protection. The edge of the fan closest to the tub is over the edge of the tub but not over the inside wall of the tub where the water is.
The wall the switch is mounted in backs up to a closet so I'm thinking about cutting in a GFI recep in the closet to protect the tub, but I don't think I should have to do it for free. I probably will just for the sake of "customer relations" anyway.
 
ok here is my 2cents. As far as just gfi protcting the whole bathroom, you may have created a building code violation. If you are in the shower and the lights trip due to the fan(not in the shower area) motor not being cleaned or some strange fluke, because it is GFI protected.....you have created a hazard. So as a rule of thumb I GFI protect the least amount of devices and equitment.
As far as doing it because the inspector asked......... if it is 1 then I do it but ask to see it in the code. If it is 'one of his things he likes to see' I do it with a smile and say 'I wil give you this one.....but I might ask for one later'. If it's 10 of them I need to see where I am required to do it.... money is money. And I do this to make money....not protect the world.......Just my 2 cents
 
dcooper said:
h equitment.
As far as doing it because the inspector asked......... if it is 1 then I do it but ask to see it in the code. If it is 'one of his things he likes to see' I do it with a smile and say 'I wil give you this one.....but I might ask for one later'.

I agree, I always ask if it's a code violation or something he would like to see. If it's something he wants to see I will do it if it's not to much trouble or expensive. Just the one time for a better relationship
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PetrosA said:
That's something new to me. Around here one of the biggest issues people have in bathrooms is mold, second is moisture damage to paint and drywall. Putting the fan on the same switch as the light helps mitigate the problems, especially in rental units where bathrooms tend to be smaller. I would argue that a timer for both would be a better solution all around, but in an argument against Federal regulations I would just be banging my head against a really big wall... ;)
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I know this was an issue in a rental unit I knew about. The owner had us wire the fan both on a timer and on the light switch because of the mold and mildew being a problem. Some tenants even tried to blame and sue the owner/property manager, but it turns out they just weren't turning the fan on because the fan was on a seperate switch from the light!! Not only that, the Department of Health says that even if they turned it on while they showered, the fan needed to stay on at least 10 minutes after they are done because of the build up of steam. So the few that did turn it on, didnt leave it on long enough.

So now the fan comes on when they turn on the light in bathroom wheather its needed or not LOL. Also, the fan (not the light) comes on and runs for 30 minutes twice a day from the timer wheather its needed or not LOL. But in most cases its needed
This took care of the mold and mildew issue, the owner is happy because no more 'threats' of lawsuits from his tenants about this mold and mildew when it was really the tenants fault!!!

Now back to the topic at hand :) in our area you are required to put the light on a gfci protection if it has exposed metal parts and intstalled in the shower or within 5ft of the water line of the tub. ;)

" All luminaires within an enclosed shower area or within five feet of the waterline of a bathtub must be enclosed, unless specifically listed for such use; these luminaires, with exposed metal parts that are grounded, must be ground fault circuit interrupter protected."
 
DaveBowden said:
The mechanical contractor installed the fan after my rough in was done and moved it one truss bay closer to the tub than where I expected it to be ( and where my stub out for it was.)
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I know this is a dumb question but were there any plans with an exhaust fan location shown on them.

If it is shown in the location that you put the stub out then maybe you can get the mechanical contractor to pay for any changes.
 
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