GFIs

[remouse21]

Are GFI receptacles required on outdoor concession trailers at a street fair function?

 

[charlie b]

Yes. 210.8(B)(4).

 

[Jomaul]

They wouldn't be required on recpt for use in the trailers. If the inside of a trailer is not be accessible to the public.

 

[charlie b]

They wouldn't be required on recpt for use in the trailers, if the inside of a trailer is not accessible to the public.

You bring up a good point, and one that is subject to debate. The way I see the situation, the people who work inside the trailers are included in the category of "the public." I say that because (1) They are not especially trained to recognize electrical safety hazards, and (2) They are the ones most likely to be injured (or worse), in the event of a failure of any of the equipment within the trailer.

 

[Jomaul]

The reason I say that the trailer would not be required to have GFCI protection is because the outlet that they are plugging the trailer into would be required to have GFI protection as required in 210.8 b 4 assuming that the trailer doesn't have its own generator.

 

[kkwong]

Jomaul are we talking about a 15/20 A outlet or are we talking about a commercial "rv" style hook up? It is my impression that 240 vac hookups do not require GFCI protection because you are feeding a panel inside the trailer for convience outlets.

 

[Jomaul]

we are talking 125v outlets single phase

 

[kkwong]

ok...in that case they would be GFI protected but whether the protection comes from the outlets themselves or from the powersource they would need to be protected.

 

[Jomaul]

You make a good point what if the powersource wasn't GFI protected. But I still have a problem with inside the trailer being public spaces or for use by the public. Another point is how would you enforce the trailer having a GFI recpt they probably didn't call for an inspection on it.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

take a look at Art 525

 

[kkwong]

I look at it as you have GFCI's in a commercial kitchen to protect the employees; you have GFCI's to protect the people in the trailer and Pierre stole my thunder.

 

[zog]

Dont confuse a GFI and a GFCI. The GFI is there to minimize equipment damage from ground faults and has very little to do with personel protection from electrical shocks. A GFCI is to protect persons from shocks. Saying you do not need GFCI's if your source has a GFI is a completely wrong and very unsafe statement.

 

[sparky59]

shouldn't these concession trailers have to get a permit and be inspected by someone? to make sure they have a sink for handwashing, proper food storage,gfi outlets, and a limited supply of roaches?

 

[Mr. Bill]

Dont confuse a GFI and a GFCI.

I always saw these as two abreviations for the same thing. GFI seems to be an older phrase while GFCI is being used more recently.

 

[petersonra]

You bring up a good point, and one that is subject to debate. The way I see the situation, the people who work inside the trailers are included in the category of "the public." I say that because (1) They are not especially trained to recognize electrical safety hazards, and (2) They are the ones most likely to be injured (or worse), in the event of a failure of any of the equipment within the trailer.

I think the term used is "general public". I don't see how an employee of the carnival can be considered part of the "general public".

 

[Jomaul]

Thats my point. This code article speaks to the outlet that the trailer is plugged into and not the outlets in the trailer.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I think the term used is "general public". I don't see how an employee of the carnival can be considered part of the "general public".

They're not, they're "carny folk."

 

[charlie b]

Thats my point. This code article speaks to the outlet that the trailer is plugged into and not the outlets in the trailer.

210.8(B)(4) says this about “outdoors in public spaces”:

For the purposes of this section, a public space is defined as any space that is for use by, or is accessible to, the public.

The NEC does not say what it means by “the public.” Article 525 uses the phrase “general public,” and that phrase is not defined either.

My interpretation is that “the public” is everyone who does not qualify as being a “Qualified Person.” That term is defined in Article 100, and includes people who have skills, knowledge, and safety training in the construction and operation of electrical equipment. A High School student who is working the cotton candy machine as a summer job is not a “Qualified Person.” I think that student should be counted as a member of the “public,” or if you prefer, the “general public,” and that the student should not be excluded from either group simply because he or she is being paid to be there.

 

[charlie b]

Take a look at Art 525

That did not help. It did not settle the question of whether an employee of the concession stand is a member of the ?general public.?

By the way, I think a verb is missing from 525.23. Actually, several words are missing, even as much as an entire sentence. The title of this article is, ?Where GFCI Protection is Required.? But it never gets around to saying, ?GFCI is required in the following place.? I suspect that sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) are intended to tell us which places need GFCI. But there is no lead in, no context, for these sub-paragraphs. I think 525.23 should have been written in the opposite order. It should have said that you need GFCI here, and then say that you could use cords with built-in GFCIs if you want to.

 

[Jomaul]

If you read the #4 its starts out by saying "Outdoors in public spaces". It dosen't say in an enclosed trailer, a concession stand etc. those are covered by different places in the code. Then it goes on to define what a public space is. My thought is a ball field, a park a store front having a wp recpt outside, any area where anyone could walk up and plug something in. Its an area open to people of all ages, where no one has control of what would be plugged into the outlet.