GFP in AFCI breakers

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jumper said:
You chose resi over commercial. I know you have commercial experience, you worked with Bob, so you are not limited in in a skill sets.
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1. They will end up in commercial, eventually

2. People often have no choice. We are at the mercy of forces greater than us.

You are not an EC, so the financial aspect does not impact you directly. Take an an EC in the market who does resi, say Dennis: he does something about it. Got a code proposal accepted. He made a NEC change because it affects him directly.
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To make a change on AFCIs you would need to be UL and have $$$$.

Why do you live in an area that has AFCI rules you do not accept? The majority there must want them because if not, y’all would pass amendments. VA said that AFCI was not going past 2005 rules, because they did not want it. Majority makes the rules.
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Most of the nation requires AFCIs. Thats because law makers do not understand them and believe what is in the NEC must be gold. After all they are the experts. Plus if something does happen like a lightning strike or someone falls asleep with a lit cigarette, now the person who took the AFCIs out of the code may be to blame.

If you want change, do something about it. Whining on an internet forum solves nothing for you and your area.

Acting like you are some social crusader to protect the public against the evils of AFCI is BS IMO.
You ain’t Robin Hood.
Openly declaring that breaking the AFCI rules is a good thing in your opinion carries no weight as I see it.
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It carries weight for me. And others. I listen to dissenting opinions and information rather than blindly follow. So nothing is lost despite the communication medium.


You chose the field where they required, you live in an area that the people must want them, I see no action on your part for changes in the NEC that affect others.
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Its not that people want them, rather joe public does not care.
 
Those that never violate NEC no matter how small the issue may seem, also never violate posted speed limits or speed up when the light turns yellow as they are approaching, right?

Saying you didn't install AFCI where it was required may be self incriminating to some extent, but how is it any different then talking about a time you were driving 85MPH. You get involved in a collision when driving over speed limits, you are partially at fault, just that many people do get away with nothing ever happening so many still do it.
 
Back to the OP. Please.

Can anyone find documentation (not anecdote) of Eaton's BR style Combination AFCI having no ground fault sensing, or of having the ground fault sensing component removed?

Can anyone find documentation that the Siemen's Murray Combination AFCI has no ground fault sensing?

I haven't and I'd love to see it if it exists.

Please.
 
mbrooke said:
1. They will end up in commercial, eventually.
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So.

2. People often have no choice. We are at the mercy of forces greater than us.
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This not a social, religious, or philosophical discussion. Please do even try and go there.


To make a change on AFCIs you would need to be UL and have $$$$.
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No you don’t. The code sections that mandate them simply can be amended out till the stupid things are fixed.

Most of the nation requires AFCIs. Thats because law makers do not understand them and believe what is in the NEC must be gold. After all they are the experts. Plus if something does happen like a lightning strike or someone falls asleep with a lit cigarette, now the person who took the AFCIs out of the code may be to blame.
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The only thing my law makers have to understand is that I can vote them out of office.
Elected officials usually appoint the boards that submit changes for adoption.


It carries weight for me. And others. I listen to dissenting opinions and information rather than blindly follow. So nothing is lost despite the communication medium.
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Dissenting opinions and information, yes. Useless whining, no.

Rebelling like a silly teenager instead of constructive action in the legislative process that adopts your building codes is pointless.

Its not that people want them, rather joe public does not care.
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Then that is joe public’s problem, not mine. This forum cannot solve the stupidity of any given set of local idiots.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Back to the OP. Please.

Can anyone find documentation (not anecdote) of Eaton's BR style Combination AFCI having no ground fault sensing, or of having the ground fault sensing component removed?

Can anyone find documentation that the Siemen's Murray Combination AFCI has no ground fault sensing?

I haven't and I'd love to see it if it exists.

Please.
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Simply connecting one without routing the load neutral through the device should give you rather quick clue as to whether or not a GF component exists. May not be so obvious as to whether they were intended to not have load side neutral run through the device though.
 
jumper said:
This not a social, religious, or philosophical discussion. Please do even try and go there.
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You did first. Its difficult to become a dentist after being an electrician for a decade or more. Its nothing esoteric, just a fact of life. How and why is not important nor is it my goal to discuss that.

No you don’t. The code sections that mandate them simply can be amended out till the stupid things are fixed.
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How? If I send any proposal to the NFPA, they want substantiation. I have nothing to give them (evidence) to support my claim. They want a UL studies, not who does what for a living.

On a local level many, many people would need to speak up and even then the manufacturers will come racing in with studies and propaganda like they did in Indiana basically telling the lawmakers life saving technology was at stake.




The only thing my law makers have to understand is that I can vote them out of office.
Elected officials usually appoint the boards that submit changes for adoption.




Dissenting opinions and information, yes. Useless whining, no.

Rebelling like a silly teenager instead of constructive action in the legislative process that adopts your building codes is pointless.



Then that is joe public’s problem, not mine. This forum cannot solve the stupidity of any given set of local idiots.
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Your right it can't and thats not the intent. Discussion on the subject is.

Perhaps this may need a new thread. If not I can conk out.
 
mbrooke said:
How? If I send any proposal to the NFPA, they want substantiation. I have nothing to give them (evidence) to support my claim. They want a UL studies, not who does what for a living.

On a local level many, many people would need to speak up and even then the manufacturers will come racing in with studies and propaganda like they did in Indiana basically telling the lawmakers life saving technology was at stake.
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The NFPA can put whatever makes them happy in the NEC, they are not a governing body that adopts law. We do not control them, we control the people who adopt the NEC.

The people in Indiana control their lawmakers, they can remove them if they are gullible. It is not that complicated. We did it in VA.;)
 
al hildenbrand said:
Back to the OP. Please.

Can anyone find documentation (not anecdote) of Eaton's BR style Combination AFCI having no ground fault sensing, or of having the ground fault sensing component removed?

Can anyone find documentation that the Siemen's Murray Combination AFCI has no ground fault sensing?

I haven't and I'd love to see it if it exists.

Please.
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Thanks for trying Al, it was a valiant effort ;)

I haven't seen anything listed in a spec sheet for any others as well, maybe someone else has found something ?

I see a few mentioned testing. I know how to check any particular breaker for GF tripping, but short of buying new AFCIs from each mfr and testing, I was hoping for documentation.

414
 
414Mhz said:
Thanks for trying Al, it was a valiant effort ;)

I haven't seen anything listed in a spec sheet for any others as well, maybe someone else has found something ?

I see a few mentioned testing. I know how to check any particular breaker for GF tripping, but short of buying new AFCIs from each mfr and testing, I was hoping for documentation.

414
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This 2017 doc does not show BR breakers without GF.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Idc...aveAs=0&Rendition=Primary&dDocName=TD003011EN
 
jumper said:
This 2017 doc does not show BR breakers without GF.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Idc...aveAs=0&Rendition=Primary&dDocName=TD003011EN
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That document is for a dual purpose GFCI/AFCI. Not to be confused with a combination AFCI.
The AFCI combination is series and parallel, the dual purpose is both a GFCI and AFCI breaker.

The combination AFCI had a form of GFCI in them but it was in the 30mA range. This was taken out of some of the latter made ones by certain Mfg.
 
Little Bill said:
The combination AFCI had a form of GFCI in them but it was in the 30mA range. This was taken out of some of the latter made ones by certain Mfg.
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Yes, that's what is said. I've shown GE documents that agree for the GE AFCI, but, so far, no other manufacturer's documents can be found. . . Do you know of any documents?
 
Well i followed yours.......this had point #7 which stated>>>

7. Why can the GE AFCI breakers function with shared and mixed neutrals and others can’t?
GE’s Patented Discrete Wavelet Transform Algorithm allows for accurate response to abnormalities in a circuit’s waveform
caused by arcing conditions, without the need for a clean neutral return path. Unlike other brands, the neutral load lug provided
on the GE AFCI breaker is there simply for your wiring convenience, and is purely optional. For new construction you have the
option of returning the neutral wire to the breaker or simply to the neutral bar (as space allows). For retrofits it’s a true timesaver.
You don’t have to track down the exact neutral wire that may be split or shared upstream– you can simply pull and replace
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my bold highlight.....tracking that down revealed this patent info

along with>>>>

An apparatus produces an encoded and compressed digital data stream from an original input digital data stream using a forward discrete wavelet transform and a tree encoding method. The input digital data stream may be a stream of video image data values in digital form. The apparatus is also capable of producing a decoded and decompressed digital data stream closely resembling the originally input digital data stream from an encoded and compressed digital data stream using a corresponding tree decoding method and a corresponding inverse discrete wavelet transform. A dual convolver is disclosed which performs both boundary and nonboundary filtering for forward transform discrete wavelet processing and which also performs filtering of corresponding inverse transform discrete wavelet processes. A portion of the dual convolver is also usable to filter an incoming stream of digital video image data values before forward discrete wavelet processing. Methods and structures for generating the addresses to read/write data values from/to memory as well as for reducing the total amount of memory necessary to store data values are also disclosed.
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there are also 70 odd images in the doc.

most of this is greek to me

~RJ~
 
ramsy said:
1) GE THQL????AFP
2) Murray MP-AT2
3) Perhaps more?
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Disregard - Murray MP-AT2 - GFP is included.

The GFP threshold may be different between MP-AT1 and M-AT2, since using my Wiggy Hot to EGC trips 1, but not 2.
 
ramsy said:
Hot to EGC with Wiggy trips A/GFCI without lifting neutral.
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ramsy said:
Disregard - Murray MP-AT2 - GFP is included.

The GFP threshold may be different between MP-AT1 and M-AT2, since using my Wiggy Hot to EGC trips 1, but not 2.
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GFP that is included in AFCI's is usually the 30mA variety unless it is a dual function AFCI/GFCi - wiggy likely doesn't draw 30+ mA.
 
All "digital video image data values and discrete wavelet processing" aside, the chief component ,the time honored toroidal coil , remains unchanged here.

~RJ~
 
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