GFPE Vs. AFCI

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ryan_618

ryan_618

Senior Member
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
I realize the code answer for this, but I would like to throw out a theoretical for discussion.

Article 426 requires GFPE for de-icing equipment, which, from my understanding, trips at about 30ma of fault. An AFCI breaker also trips at about 30ma. Would an AFCI be an acceptable alternative to the GFPE at about half the price?
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

Does the fact that the breaker may perform the same function (I don't know for sure if it does) mean that it is listed to be used for GFPE? :confused: Good question Ryan.
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

HMMM, Ryan is stirring the pot again. :D

The simple answer is no. They have not been investigated for that application. However, since a GFCI is part of the circuitry, I suspect the manufacturers will make the AFCI in Class A and Class B versions of the GFCI. As it stands now, unless it is listed as a GFCI, it is not a GFCI. An AFCI will trip in the milliampere range but that range is not part of the listing.

Ryan, I am looking forward to meeting you in SLC. :D
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

I thought the reason for GFP incorporated into the AFCI was an attempt at protecting against the more dangerous series arc verses the parallel arc.

With this only being a claim by the manufacturers, I wouldn't put any faith in this being a functional operation of the device. ;)

Roger
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

I am going to move this to the AFCI forum for the moderator there to help us with. However a class A GFCI combo AFCI is available from one manufacturer for only a few dollars more than an AFCI. I paid $38 for mine in my show and tell box. I have installed a lot of heat cables with GFCI protection, but for short runs that will have limited leakage.
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

I asked this very question to the Cutler Hammer guy at our IEAI metting a few month's back and he called me to let me know that their AFCI's are listed for GFP use and are tested for use on gutter and pipe heat tapes. I posted this in an early thread I'll try to find it.
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

I stand corrected. ;)

Roger
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

Wayne, does its listing indicate that it is rated for 30 ma? If it has not been evaluated for the use, it is not permitted to be used in that manner. I know that some of the AFCIs have a listing as a GFCI in the 4 to 6 ma range.

Kirk Schirra is our newest moderator and is an expert about AFCIs. :D
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

Some AFCI (Cutlers) I've bought recently came through with explicit labeling indicating acceptability for 30ma GFP application.
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

Charlie:
As far as I was told they are. The GFCI version are listed as a dual roll to be able to provide GFCI for people protection, for states like Vermont that require all circuits protected by AFCI. And the GFP version is listed for 30ma GFP applications.
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

It sounds to me like most (all?) of the manufacturers are having their AFCIs listed for the dual purpose of either GFP of equipment (30 ma) or GFCI (5 ma) since they need the circuitry for the operation of the AFCI anyway. :D
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

I researched and developed a switch that would cause a circuit to open in the event of a departure from normal current flow. This switch was intended to clear a marine 4160 volt cable blow out, to an offshore barge.

The fault resembled an arc, but would not generate enough current to trip an internal logic breaker.

The erratic current had to be seen at the feeder, and clear the problem well below the maximum rating.

I used an ampmeter, a photo cell, and a light/ mirror to record the intensity and frequency of the erratic current. By injecting the fluctuations into a ring counter, I was able to remote cut off the feeder, or record a warning of pending condition.

This was a crude instrument,due to solid state devices were not develped much in those days, 40 years ago.

[ May 13, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]
 
Re: GFPE Vs. AFCI

Hi Ryan, I wondered the same thing as you when I first saw the 30Ma rating inthe AFCI info.

About six months ago we installed three MI ice melt systems. We found out the 30 Ma GFIC breakers were long lead items and explored the CH AFCI option. We were assured by CH that this was a permitted use for their AFCI breaker. We canceled the 30 Ma GFIC breakers and installed eleven AFCI's that day.

A contractor's dream; Completed the project on time and for substancially less money.
 
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