Glaring error in the NEC

[Strathead]

So, i was reviewing questions I had written for my 2nd year apprenticeship. I Was making sure I had the proper reference from the book I was teaching. I didn't like the way the words were in the book and I though about deleting the question. First I decided to check the code book and found out that my teaching book was merely taking its bad from the NEC. Here is the Question:

1. Which of the following are considered Service Conductors?
   1. The conductors attached to the utility transformer and extending underground to the building it is feeding. Terminating in a gutter.
   2. The insulated conductors run in conduit or cable extending from the service head to the service disconnect, including the portion between the meter and the disconnect
   3. Either 1 or 2
   4. None of the above

After reading the code book definitions, I realized that either answer a. is correct period. b. is correct if you are reading the definition of Service Conductors, but not if you are reading the definition or Service conductors Overhead so c. is ambivalent and d is always wrong.

 

[jap]

So, i was reviewing questions I had written for my 2nd year apprenticeship. I Was making sure I had the proper reference from the book I was teaching. I didn't like the way the words were in the book and I though about deleting the question. First I decided to check the code book and found out that my teaching book was merely taking its bad from the NEC. Here is the Question:

1. Which of the following are considered Service Conductors?
   1. The conductors attached to the utility transformer and extending underground to the building it is feeding. Terminating in a gutter.
   2. The insulated conductors run in conduit or cable extending from the service head to the service disconnect, including the portion between the meter and the disconnect
   3. Either a or b
   4. None of the above

After reading the code book definitions, I realized that either answer a. is correct period. b. is correct if you are reading the definition of Service Conductors, but not if you are reading the definition or Service conductors Overhead so c. is ambivalent and d is always wrong.

Where did you come up with this question ?

Seems very elementary to me and not a good example of a true Service Conductor question that would be professionally asked.

JAP>

 

[jaggedben]

I agree with jap. A correct answer would mention service point and service equipment.

 

[Strathead]

Where did you come up with this question ?

Seems very elementary to me and not a good example of a true Service Conductor question that would be professionally asked.

JAP>

You are welcome to your opinions. I don't agree with you and I wrote the question. The point is that in the definitions of the code, the service conductors extend TO the service disconnect. But in the overhead service conductor definition, the service conductors stop at the point of connection to the service entrance conductors.

Now please enlighten me why this is not a good example of a "true" service conductor question.

 

[Strathead]

I agree with jap. A correct answer would mention service point and service equipment.

Why? This is not a code question. It is a question derived from the wording in a text book. And you seem to miss the point, the code definition is wrong.

 

[480sparky]

If the answers are numbered, how can option 3 ( a or b ) exist?

 

[jap]

So, i was reviewing questions I had written for my 2nd year apprenticeship. I Was making sure I had the proper reference from the book I was teaching. I didn't like the way the words were in the book and I though about deleting the question. First I decided to check the code book and found out that my teaching book was merely taking its bad from the NEC. Here is the Question:

1. Which of the following are considered Service Conductors?
   1. The conductors attached to the utility transformer and extending underground to the building it is feeding. Terminating in a gutter.
   2. The insulated conductors run in conduit or cable extending from the service head to the service disconnect, including the portion between the meter and the disconnect
   3. Either a or b
   4. None of the above

After reading the code book definitions, I realized that either answer a. is correct period. b. is correct if you are reading the definition of Service Conductors, but not if you are reading the definition or Service conductors Overhead so c. is ambivalent and d is always wrong.

This post is confusing in itself.

You say this was a question you had written for your second year apprenticeship.

Are you writing questions to yourself?

Then you said you wanted to make sure you had the proper reference from the book you were "teaching".

If you asked this question to yourself, are you not the student instead of the instructor?

You didn't like the way the words were in the book and thought about deleting the question.

So your thinking about deleting a question out of a book because you don't like the way the words were ?

Teaching book?

Why not use direct statements out of the code phrased as a question to be your teaching book?

I admire your valiant effort, however, I was confused long before the question ever got asked about the Service Entrance Conductors
"terminating in a gutter" and what that had to do with anything.



JAP>

 

[Strathead]

This post is confusing in itself.

You say this was a question you had written for your second year apprenticeship.

Are you writing questions to yourself?

Then you said you wanted to make sure you had the proper reference from the book you were "teaching".

If you asked this question to yourself, are you not the student instead of the instructor?

You didn't like the way the words were in the book and thought about deleting the question.

So your thinking about deleting a question out of a book because you don't like the way the words were ?

Teaching book?

Why not use direct statements out of the code phrased as a question to be your teaching book?

I admire your valiant effort, however, I was confused long before the question ever got asked about the Service Entrance Conductors
"terminating in a gutter" and what that had to do with anything.



JAP>

OK, there isn't anything in my post that implies I am "writing" an apprenticeship question for myself as an apprentice. That would be ridiculous. And, since I have seen your name many times, I assume you have seen mine and there is nothing in either of our posts that would imply that we are merely apprentices.

Yes, I am (or was) writing the questions myself. I wasn't given the best of resources when I started teaching and it was necessary for me to write my own tests. I recently asked for additional aids so I probably won't have to do this any more.

As far as the rest of it, I don't like the way the wording is in the Code book. It is wrong. Either services conductors run to the service disconnect OR they stop at the point of attachment to the overhead service conductors not both THAT IS THE POINT OF THE ORIGINAL POST. Please don't run down a rabbit hole. The point the code is poorly written.

 

[Chamuit]

Are you confusing (what I've heard called) service lateral (Choice #1) and service conductors (Choice #2)?

Service lateral - The underground service conductors between the street main, including any risers at a pole or other structure or from transformers, and the first point of connection to the service-entrance conductors.

 

[Strathead]

If the answers are numbered, how can option 3 ( a or b ) exist?

That was Mike Holt changing the set up from my Word document that I cut and pasted. It figures that the anal people here IGNORE the fact that the code is wrong to pick apart the post.:rant:

 

[ptonsparky]

If the answers are numbered, how can option 3 ( a or b ) exist?

That’s what I thought...

 

[rambojoe]

kind of a trick question- but not really worth picking it apart. i think they are pointing to the "meter" line being correct... even if we have seen a few top hats or gutters before the meter. i'd worry about the definition of service conductors... then it might not be neither.

so, whats your answer? hint- you can not have half of the service!

rabbit hole go! good goosh I had to read it 3 times... screw school. pay attention to the PLC part of the course- that will make a lot of money for you

 

[kwired]

If the answers are numbered, how can option 3 ( a or b ) exist?

That’s what I thought...

Me 3.

 

[kwired]

So, i was reviewing questions I had written for my 2nd year apprenticeship. I Was making sure I had the proper reference from the book I was teaching. I didn't like the way the words were in the book and I though about deleting the question. First I decided to check the code book and found out that my teaching book was merely taking its bad from the NEC. Here is the Question:

1. Which of the following are considered Service Conductors?
   1. The conductors attached to the utility transformer and extending underground to the building it is feeding. Terminating in a gutter.
   2. The insulated conductors run in conduit or cable extending from the service head to the service disconnect, including the portion between the meter and the disconnect
   3. Either a or b
   4. None of the above

After reading the code book definitions, I realized that either answer a. is correct period. b. is correct if you are reading the definition of Service Conductors, but not if you are reading the definition or Service conductors Overhead so c. is ambivalent and d is always wrong.

You are welcome to your opinions. I don't agree with you and I wrote the question. The point is that in the definitions of the code, the service conductors extend TO the service disconnect. But in the overhead service conductor definition, the service conductors stop at the point of connection to the service entrance conductors.

Now please enlighten me why this is not a good example of a "true" service conductor question.

Why? This is not a code question. It is a question derived from the wording in a text book. And you seem to miss the point, the code definition is wrong.

Why do you think code definition is wrong?

There are three different definitions and the one that is simply service conductors is:

Service Conductors.
The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.

The other two are more specific but both are still "service conductors".

Also note it says "from the service point". So if service point is say at the mentioned gutter your (A) (or (1)) answer is not a correct answer because part of what is described is ahead of the service point.

 

[jap]

So, i was reviewing questions I had written for my 2nd year apprenticeship.

If there's nothing in this post that implies you were "writing" an apprenticeship question for yourself as an apprentice, I'd hate to argue points of the NEC with you that are open to interpretation.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

If there's nothing in this post that implies you were "writing" an apprenticeship question for yourself as an apprentice, I'd hate to argue points of the NEC with you that are open to interpretation.

JAP>

I think the questions are for 2nd year apprentices that he is teaching and not questions for "his apprenticeship".

 

[Craigv]

I think it's counterproductive to break his shoes over the writing semantics, just comes across as snarky and unfriendly for no reason. The forum list formats don't permit alpha sub listing in the numeric list. And there are punctuation errors, but asking for clarification would be far more helpful than arguing an intention that's already been explained.

Having said that, it isn't clear what part of the Code definition has a glaring error. The answers a. and b. describe somewhat unusual services, but both could be interpreted as being correct.

A padmount transformer's secondary terminals could be the Service Point, and a gutter could be the other end...even if the Service Conductors do continue past that gutter to a meter base or disconnect, what is described are Service Conductors.

And the conductors from the weatherhead to the Service Disconnect are Service Conductors. The conductors between a meter base and a disconnecting means are Service-Entrance conductors, but are also still Service Conductors because both definitions of Service-Entrance Conductors state, "The service conductors..."

Okay, so, what is the glaring error?

 

[rambojoe]

no error to any question... the definition that kwired gave is correct.. cant go wrong with that.

i hope he doesn't feel like his shoes are getting busted- it is important to absorb what these guys are telling him- 2 eyes and 10 fingers... wait.. that doesn't quite work

 

[jap]

I think it's counterproductive to break his shoes over the writing semantics, just comes across as snarky and unfriendly for no reason.

No one is breaking shoes.

He's been around a while like most of the rest of us.

The NEC is a snarky and unfriendly read in itself.

A "shall" or an "or" or an "and" or even a comma placed in a strategic location can make all the difference in how a statement is interpreted.

Jap>

 

[jap]

So, i was reviewing questions I had, written for my 2nd year apprenticeship.

See,

I put a comma in the sentence above.

Now we can blame all of this misunderstanding on whoever wrote the question in Strathead's 2nd year apprenticeship program.

Jap>