Grandfather receptacle locations?

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lakee911

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Columbus, OH
Hi All,

I’m developing a set of plans and I need some guidance determining whether an existing condition is grandfathered in. This is a residential unfinished basement constructed circa 1921. Space in question is 450 square feet (roughly 36’x12.5’). Electrical was improved in the late 1980s and replaced throughout, with permit. At that time, a few receptacles were installed in the ceiling in this space.

The current plan calls for finishing the walls (drywall as finished surface) and extend (i.e., splice in current box) the receptacles down to a more convenient location on the wall. The ceiling is not being finished—it will be painted and left exposed as is. The AHJ says that because the space is new (and I’m arguing that it’s not), the receptacles would need to be installed at least every 12’ and in accordance with other code requirements. I don’t think this is correct, but I’ve not argued it yet.

FYI, this is the same building official who is telling me that I need a waiver from the state to allow the existing stairwell to remain, which is too narrow by today’s code. Stairwell is not being touched. I provided code references supporting the claim that it can remain and they’re firm on their interpretation. I’m told that this requires an appeal to the state, at my cost, and he’s confident that they will “relax” the requirements (which is done on a case by case basis only). I plan to tackle the receptacle issue in the same appeal.

Thanks,
Jason
 
Though the "space" is being finished (walls), what matters in this instance is weather or not the basement is being converted to "habitable space". Just putting finish material on basement walls does not change the fact that its a basement. IMHO
 
I agree with the inspector for both the receptacles and stairs. You are finishing a space space so it needs to comply.

Why is the space being finished? I'm 99.99999% sure it intends to be used for more than just storage.
 
Vince1971 said:
Though the "space" is being finished (walls), what matters in this instance is weather or not the basement is being converted to "habitable space". Just putting finish material on basement walls does not change the fact that its a basement. IMHO
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Okay, why would one finish such resi space if such space was not going to be used as habitable space?
 
jumper said:
Okay, why would one finish such resi space if such space was not going to be used as habitable space?
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For storage.

curt swartz said:
I agree with the inspector for both the receptacles and stairs. You are finishing a space space so it needs to comply.

Why is the space being finished? I'm 99.99999% sure it intends to be used for more than just storage.
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Yes, just as many folks use their unfinished basement for more than storage.

Vince1971 said:
Though the "space" is being finished (walls), what matters in this instance is weather or not the basement is being converted to "habitable space". Just putting finish material on basement walls does not change the fact that its a basement. IMHO
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Agreed, but I think it may end up meeting all of the conditions for habitable space. Ceiling is high enough. Walls will be insulated and finished. Bit circular to say that the lack of electrical compliance prevents it from being habitable.
 
In NJ the new work (receptacles) would have to comply, but the stairs stay "as is".
 
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it makes sense to argue the stairs, because you are talking major effort to bring them up to current code.

On the receptacles, before the walls are up, it would seem trivial to meet current spacing requirements and a waste of effort to argue otherwise, even if the argument is valid.

Just my opinion.

-Jon
 
winnie said:
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it makes sense to argue the stairs, because you are talking major effort to bring them up to current code.

On the receptacles, before the walls are up, it would seem trivial to meet current spacing requirements and a waste of effort to argue otherwise, even if the argument is valid.

Just my opinion.

-Jon
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I agree.
 
Stairs issue may not allow one to place a bedroom there, usually needs to be an egress window in said bedroom or second entrance also. Many other types of spaces the steps can probably remain as is.
 
kwired said:
Stairs issue may not allow one to place a bedroom there, usually needs to be an egress window in said bedroom or second entrance also. Many other types of spaces the steps can probably remain as is.
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Making the stair larger would not allow you to put a bedroom in the basement. If you have a sleeping area in the basement, the basement needs a qualifying second exit. A window would have to open out onto grade, and be something like 32" x 48".
 
gadfly56 said:
Making the stair larger would not allow you to put a bedroom in the basement. If you have a sleeping area in the basement, the basement needs a qualifying second exit. A window would have to open out onto grade, and be something like 32" x 48".
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Does the first exit (involving the stairs) need to meet certain requirements also?
 
gadfly56 said:
If you have a sleeping area in the basement, the basement needs a qualifying second exit. A window would have to open out onto grade, and be something like 32" x 48".
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I happened to be reading about this recently, in the IRC it's R310.2. That requires an "emergency escape and rescue opening" to be at least 20" wide, 24" tall, and for ground floor or below grade openings, 5.0 square feet in area (for upper stories, 5.7 square feet). Also, the sill of the opening has to be at most 44" above the interior floor, and if that sill is below grade, a window well is required.

Cheers, Wayne
 
kwired said:
Does the first exit (involving the stairs) need to meet certain requirements also?
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I believe that if you were to create a sleeping area in a basement that otherwise doesn't have the required egress, a NJ AHJ would make you bring the stairs up to code. You are essentially changing the occupancy of the basement, and that's the biggest criteria NJ uses to determine if the rehab code applies to your project or not.
 
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