Grandfather receptacle locations?

[kwired]

I believe that if you were to create a sleeping area in a basement that otherwise doesn't have the required egress, a NJ AHJ would make you bring the stairs up to code. You are essentially changing the occupancy of the basement, and that's the biggest criteria NJ uses to determine if the rehab code applies to your project or not.

And that sure seems it could apply to OP if he is adding a bedroom when it comes to the stairs. Making a bedroom out of something that wasn't a bedroom before certainly would make 210.52(A) apply.

 

[gadfly56]

And that sure seems it could apply to OP if he is adding a bedroom when it comes to the stairs. Making a bedroom out of something that wasn't a bedroom before certainly would make 210.52(A) apply.

I will note that the OP does not use the word "bedroom" in his post, nor in his follow-up.

 

[kwired]

I will note that the OP does not use the word "bedroom" in his post, nor in his follow-up.

No, he hasn't describe the space at all other then it is more "finished" then it was before. Could be a closet, bathroom, laundry room, bedroom, living room or similar, hobby/craft room, office ..... some of which might be hard to say definitely fall under 210.52(A).

 

[Adamjamma]

I am not sure of codes but, if I were taking the time and effort to fix up my basement, for a game room, for cleaner storage, etc... whatever the purpose... I would put outlets in following the twelve foot rules at least..probably closer than that... because it does not cost that much at the time I am doing the other work... and is far easier to do now than later. Would probably put a few cat 6 outlets and a tv outlet in as well... just so I did not have to cut walls later to do it...
but that is just me and not in the codes as far as I know.

 

[gadfly56]

I am not sure of codes but, if I were taking the time and effort to fix up my basement, for a game room, for cleaner storage, etc... whatever the purpose... I would put outlets in following the twelve foot rules at least..probably closer than that... because it does not cost that much at the time I am doing the other work... and is far easier to do now than later. Would probably put a few cat 6 outlets and a tv outlet in as well... just so I did not have to cut walls later to do it...
but that is just me and not in the codes as far as I know.

Another good reason is that appliance cords are generally ~6 feet or so long. It allows you more flexibility in room layout if you follow the 12 foot rule.

 

[Craigv]

Hi All,

I’m developing a set of plans and I need some guidance determining whether an existing condition is grandfathered in. This is a residential unfinished basement constructed circa 1921. Space in question is 450 square feet (roughly 36’x12.5’). Electrical was improved in the late 1980s and replaced throughout, with permit. At that time, a few receptacles were installed in the ceiling in this space.

The current plan calls for finishing the walls (drywall as finished surface) and extend (i.e., splice in current box) the receptacles down to a more convenient location on the wall. The ceiling is not being finished—it will be painted and left exposed as is. The AHJ says that because the space is new (and I’m arguing that it’s not), the receptacles would need to be installed at least every 12’ and in accordance with other code requirements. I don’t think this is correct, but I’ve not argued it yet.

FYI, this is the same building official who is telling me that I need a waiver from the state to allow the existing stairwell to remain, which is too narrow by today’s code. Stairwell is not being touched. I provided code references supporting the claim that it can remain and they’re firm on their interpretation. I’m told that this requires an appeal to the state, at my cost, and he’s confident that they will “relax” the requirements (which is done on a case by case basis only). I plan to tackle the receptacle issue in the same appeal.

Thanks,
Jason

I'm unaware of what the inspector is deeming "new" in the context of rehabbing an existing space. As already mentioned, there's a change of use. Typically a space is considered "habitable" by meeting certain criteria...finished ceilings, floors, and sometimes heating are required in various combinations for the space to be "habitable" and then it's subject to additional requirements.

I agree completely that installing receptacles is simply not worth the argument. And frankly, it should be done if the walls are being finished. Even the stair issue is arguable...if this will be space used as a family or "rec" room, having decent stairs is a safety matter and just makes the space worthwhile. But I fully concur that the work involved in adding new stairs to old homes is often ridiculously difficult. That part is probably worth an appeal, if not the receptacles.

 

[kwired]

I'm unaware of what the inspector is deeming "new" in the context of rehabbing an existing space. As already mentioned, there's a change of use. Typically a space is considered "habitable" by meeting certain criteria...finished ceilings, floors, and sometimes heating are required in various combinations for the space to be "habitable" and then it's subject to additional requirements.

I agree completely that installing receptacles is simply not worth the argument. And frankly, it should be done if the walls are being finished. Even the stair issue is arguable...if this will be space used as a family or "rec" room, having decent stairs is a safety matter and just makes the space worthwhile. But I fully concur that the work involved in adding new stairs to old homes is often ridiculously difficult. That part is probably worth an appeal, if not the receptacles.

A closet can have finished ceilings, floors, etc. but isn't considered a habitable room.

 

[Adamjamma]

but when you build a closet you have rules as to where electrical items go in that closet, such as lighting, unless it is a portable closet that can be taken apart and carried to another residence.

The stairs may be arguable but, it depends upon the reason. Is it due to the angle? You could change the angle by lengthening the step run, and if needed, turning the steps at the end. If it is due to width, that may not be as easy to fix, due to the structural situations of the walls and floors around it and above it. If it is a clearance issue, that is impossible to fix in many cases and due to the age of the building would need to be waivered. But all is between the homeowner and the local AHJ.

 

[gadfly56]

but when you build a closet you have rules as to where electrical items go in that closet, such as lighting, unless it is a portable closet that can be taken apart and carried to another residence.

The stairs may be arguable but, it depends upon the reason. Is it due to the angle? You could change the angle by lengthening the step run, and if needed, turning the steps at the end. If it is due to width, that may not be as easy to fix, due to the structural situations of the walls and floors around it and above it. If it is a clearance issue, that is impossible to fix in many cases and due to the age of the building would need to be waivered. But all is between the homeowner and the local AHJ.

Stair run would not be easy to fix, as you would almost certainly have issues with head clearance. I doubt that the opening for the stair was made any larger than needed to accommodate the rise/run of the stair that was actually installed.

 

[kwired]

but when you build a closet you have rules as to where electrical items go in that closet, such as lighting, unless it is a portable closet that can be taken apart and carried to another residence.

The stairs may be arguable but, it depends upon the reason. Is it due to the angle? You could change the angle by lengthening the step run, and if needed, turning the steps at the end. If it is due to width, that may not be as easy to fix, due to the structural situations of the walls and floors around it and above it. If it is a clearance issue, that is impossible to fix in many cases and due to the age of the building would need to be waivered. But all is between the homeowner and the local AHJ.

Which is what the OP is having an issue with, except we don't know exactly what the use of the space in question is to be. Since his inspector seems to want him to comply with 6-12 rule on spacing we can only assume it is a space mentioned in 210.52(A), unless OP can confirm it is some other space.