GrandPappi

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Judgement calls

Judgement calls

Nice guy, knowledgeable

Ok the questions came up
did you do the calcs for the main?
Well it was green tagged in 1959 and I don’t want to change the 200a main disco.

#6 wire? The smallest service is 100amp now
Apartments are allowed 60a and we have the wire for it.
Let’s get the Code section for that.

3 wire feeders
Dennis didn’t seem to think that using the neutral for the ground was too bad.
And when was it disallowed to grab the first 5’ of the water for a sub panel? 1990?
The expense of redoing the feeders will make the choice between pulling new wire or leaving the fp disco and sp there.
They wouldn’t trip no matter how much SParking was going on in the clothes closet The panel is located now.
Obviously were going to flip that around to face the living room so it’s just improvement after improvement

We don’t want to open a quantity of Sheetrock that would trigger a requirement to install sprinklers!
To pull new wire we would have to open up walls in 3 units.

I guess I can go up and over the roof and come down into the apartment but all the little distribution wires to the outlets and receptacles are all two wire anyway.
What a hardship just to replace an FP panel

Two wire distribution to the point of use outlets
I would say that the combination GFI and AFC I breakers would prove adequate here and
I would put the GFI at each point of use as possible for redundancy.
The only place not to have a GFI at point of use would be the switched outlet because there are no ceiling lights only switched outlets.

It can’t really be true that to change out a dangerous FP SubPanel and FP disconnect you would have to yank out all the old distribution wire and feeders
and install fire sprinklers for the building
and upgrade the meter main disconnect

That’s just too much of a hardship and it’s crazy
I would classify this is more of a repair of obsolete and inadequate equipment
 
Last edited:
See this thread post 7
There’s something from dennis
from back in the day
Saying
6/3 no ground
was a bit of
A gray area
But common

Also look at the distribution CT’s
W no ground

That’s what they were
selling at the Home Depot
that year
 
In the OP, you said "the disco and the loadcenter." Do you mean the buildings main service disconnect and feeder distribution equipment?

My question still stands: Why must the feeder be replaced? If your scope of work is to replace the service equipment, what exists remains.
 
NO the disco is the apartment feeder tributary disconnect
Not the utility main disconnect.


There is a single phase 120/240v
overhead service to a multi family dwelling
that terminates in a 200a Bryant disconnect
Main disco

This disco feeds 6 house meters and a common
The individual meters are FP brand w 50a
Mains on them that feed 6/3 without ground
Apartment subfeed breakers
Unit disconnects
Would like to change this

Old cloth/rubber service cable which traverses
A crawl space and then up the three floors to
Individual units
Concealed in wood framed drywall. Construction

Each apartment has a small fp loadcenter in the closet
Would like to change this

Since the non metallic cables
they used st that time had no ground wire
The individual load circuits are fed with
Cables that also do not have ground wires
In the assembly

My job is to make the installation
“Safer”
Because fp is notorious for not performing
It’s safety function well
Even if it was listed at the time of Install

So- at the minimum I would like to remove and
Replace the one fp panel in the unit now vacant.

Further
It would seem prudent to replace the apartment
Disconnect
Subfeed ocPd and enclosure at the same Time.

But...
None of the loads after the meter bank
Have equipment grounding conductors
Bundled in the nonmetallic cable
assemblies
There’s no ground in any of the 1959 old romex
the place is roped in


So
How to replace the unit panel given no grounding
Wire in any cable
The panels are like 3wire dryers.
The loads from the unit loadcenter can only
Have devices replaced by gfi devices or 2prong or

Be gutted & rewired.

If replacing the feeders is not
economically feasible
The options to upgrade seem limited.

If the panel is replaced w new equipment
And circuits are supplied from new w gfi/Afci cbs
And devices are redundantly replaced
W gfi devices
Seems the devices would be ok

The panel however would not have a
Eq grounding conductor.
Not too important since none
of the loads have eq grounding

But the fp panel itself
Which is in a clothes closet
Could come to line voltage potential
Without eq grounding.
Ditto the elec cooktop and range.


So
If not economically feasible
to replace wire

And not allowed to bootleg
Neutral at panel and cooking equipment
Also bonding not allowed back to
First five feet of water
Only for service equipment

And gfi protection for branch CT’s ng
Then

The the crusty FP equipment will
Remain in the clothes closet
And persist at the meter bank
To distribute from the main to the units
Even tho they are fp

Else
We could find another remedy using
Earlier code remedies like bootlegging
Neutral or running sep grounding

And more recent remedies like gfi
Protection on 2 wire CT’s

Further
Running new wire, besides being costly
Requires opening walls
And we cant trigger sprinkler requirements

So I guess I’ll drop the whole thing
Thanks
?
 
This just in from the owner




it's all online!

I could not find a permit for our building, but for
The. Neighbor I found
electrical meter upgrade,
new feeders and sub panels in all six units,
all work per current codes (in 6/18/2015

In unit 4 The city approved a 50 AMP sub panel on 11/6/2014

Same building: install 400 Main electric service panel,
install seven sub panels,
one in each unit (one 30 amp sub panel,
one 70 amp sub panel, and five 50 amp sub panel).
No wiring.
 
There’s a real senior electrical inspector whois my old associate, so I called him up and asked him about all this
It’s not his jurisdiction, but he said
since that panel is in the closet there’s a good chance that those closets
are stacked
It’s only three stories
go ahead and send some risers through those closet stacks and then you’re good

Anyway he also said the GFI circuit breaker should be no problem
Combo Arc fault breaker‘s w gfi and GFI at point of use
come on you’re improving it
Whose really going to complain
get those new feeders in there
As far as upgrading the 200 at main,
he said well he doesn’t have any objection
With doing them one at a time and you can upgrade the main later as needed


So we found a way to upgrade the feeders
going to upgrade and flip the FP panel in the closet and hard pipe and protect the two wire branch circuit conductors with AFci combo GFI breakers and
put safety devices at the points of use.
Replace the feeder Disconnects as vacancies come up
and worry about upgrading the main switch later
 
wyreman said:
That’s just too much of a hardship and it’s crazy
I would classify this is more of a repair of obsolete and inadequate equipment
Click to expand...

deep cleansing breath. step away from the ledge.

i don't remember who, but *someone* makes a replacement for FPE
and prince of darkness panels, that is UL listed, and fits in the original
can. you can just change them out. not a panel upgrade.

as you are not changing the panel....... it is considered like changing
a ballast. it does not mean you are replacing fixtures in the eyes of the AHJ.

google is your friend here. dive deep into the internoodle.....
 
Fulthrotl said:
deep cleansing breath. step away from the ledge.

i don't remember who, but *someone* makes a replacement for FPE
and prince of darkness panels, that is UL listed, and fits in the original
can. you can just change them out. not a panel upgrade.

as you are not changing the panel....... it is considered like changing
a ballast. it does not mean you are replacing fixtures in the eyes of the AHJ.

google is your friend here. dive deep into the internoodle.....
Click to expand...

Eaton makes retrofit loadcenters. Is that who you're thinking of? They are expensive but might be worth the cost if the can is in the wall.
 
OK so we may have a go ahead to put in the 7 m bank.
It looks like PG&E needs commercial bypass for any common meters now and what I’m thinking is to keep the existing switch and feed the new 6 m bank plus common from the existing switch simultaneous with the old work basically have them both there
new meter bank & old work
then have a big trough underneath to swing over the subfeed disconnects from the individual meter sockets as we get the opportunity to go into the units and put in new risers 2AEDAE06-0474-4B4D-84FF-116DD518937E.jpg
 
peter d said:
Eaton makes retrofit loadcenters. Is that who you're thinking of? They are expensive but might be worth the cost if the can is in the wall.
Click to expand...

yeah, that is them.

'spensive is a relative word. after you rip the panel out of the wall,
and deal with the AHJ, and any hoops he comes up with, paying
money, going home, and making a profit starts to have some appeal.

money is not the most expensive form of payment.
 
How many SF of wall do you need to remove to trigger the sprinkler requirement?
If the panels are all one above another, can you cut a small hole, say 4"x4" or 6"x6" at floor level
in the wall where the panels are in each unit? Drill through the wall and floor into the wall cavity
below. Then fish new NM cable down to the craw space. This assumes there is no fire
stopping in the walls.
 
The idea now is to run 3/4” emt up the closet stack for new feeders.
Surface raceway
 
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