Ground fault on an arc fault circuit

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Energize,
I was not clear...I was not disputing the fact of the new code rule, I just am not convinced that the combination type AFCIs can really directly detect series arcs. I have seen no technical details that tell me that is the case. Series arcs, now that the AFCI people say they exist, can be detected indirectly as is done in the branch circuit/feeder type of AFCI.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Energize,
I was not clear...I was not disputing the fact of the new code rule, I just am not convinced that the combination type AFCIs can really directly detect series arcs. I have seen no technical details that tell me that is the case. Series arcs, now that the AFCI people say they exist, can be detected indirectly as is done in the branch circuit/feeder type of AFCI.
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As soon as you employ microprocessors, the question becomes math and modeling.
 
weressl said:
As soon as you employ microprocessors, the question becomes math and modeling.
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Well yeah......:smile:

But they are trying to distinguish a bad arc from the normal day to day arcs that happen in all electrical systems.

And they are trying to fit this in breaker that fits in the existing residential panel boards.

And the processor and it's accessories can not add much heat. Already there is talk about AFCIs needing free space on each side due to heating. Cutler Hammer backed a 2008 proposal to eliminate the 42 circuit limit in panel boards, it seems they see the need when 2008s more extensive AFCI requirements kick in.

And they have to do this at a cost which remains somewhat controlled.

I really wonder how this will all play out when the 2008 NEC is adopted. Lucky for me the work I do has not had me even touch an AFCI yet. :cool:
 
weressl said:
Stand by to be amazed.

I am, every day when I keep my eyes open.......
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You preaching to the choir there.

I rarely say 'never' about anything and you could probably find a post or two where I have said I expect them to get AFCI out that lives up to it's promise.

I just don't see it as being to soon and the NEC requires ECs to start installing the combination type on Jan 1 2008.

I have not seen anyone post yet that they have actually been able to buy one yet.
 
osbelectric said:
Square D makes one as do other Manufacturers.Have been using them in Canada for a few years
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Got a link?

iwire said:
I have not seen anyone post yet that they have actually been able to buy one yet.
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When I brought this up at the supply house the other day, the guy behind the counter gave me a deer in the headlights look - I guess nobody at that branch realizes a different kind of AFCI is headed their direction, as of yet.
 
osbelectric said:
Square D makes one as do other Manufacturers.Have been using them in Canada for a few years
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I think that you are confusing the "standard" type AFCIs that have been available with the "newer" type Combination AFCIs. They are nowing being manufactured, I do not know if any are commercially available just yet though.
 
iwire said:
And the processor and it's accessories can not add much heat. Already there is talk about AFCIs needing free space on each side due to heating.
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I spoke with a representative from Eaton (Cutler Hammer) at the Western Section IAEI meeting in St. Louis back in September about the heat developed by these types of breakers and asked if the requirement in the '08 code would necessitate that the breakers be spaced apart from each other.

FWIW, His reply was that the heat generated by the breakers being placed one on top of the other would not be a concern.

Pete
 
Energize said:
Jan 1st the AFCI requirement changes to include combination arc fault that includes series arching.

If I knew how to post a picture I have a pretty good example.
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Here's a nice pic of a series arch. :grin:

acueducto.jpg
 
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