Ground Fault Problems New Custom Home

[Amps]

Please cite the code section that precludes lighting circuits from being GFCI protected.

As Little Bill noted, it was a typo. As we all know the NEC is law as adopted by States, etc. So in this case, the GFI trips and the lights go out. The husband who is a surgeon, falls and hits his head, loosing the use of his hands. He and his wife sue you for millions upon millions of dollars due to what his income would have been had he not fallen due to the lights going out. Your lawyer asks you " please show me in your code book the article that states those lights are supposed to be on a GFI".

 

[d0nut]

As Little Bill noted, it was a typo. As we all know the NEC is law as adopted by States, etc. So in this case, the GFI trips and the lights go out. The husband who is a surgeon, falls and hits his head, loosing the use of his hands. He and his wife sue you for millions upon millions of dollars due to what his income would have been had he not fallen due to the lights going out. Your lawyer asks you " please show me in your code book the article that states those lights are supposed to be on a GFI".

Do you provide emergency egress illumination throughout the residence, either using an emergency (Article 700) generator or batteries? The same logic you are using above would require it.

 

[ptonsparky]

As Little Bill noted, it was a typo. As we all know the NEC is law as adopted by States, etc. So in this case, the GFI trips and the lights go out. The husband who is a surgeon, falls and hits his head, loosing the use of his hands. He and his wife sue you for millions upon millions of dollars due to what his income would have been had he not fallen due to the lights going out. Your lawyer asks you " please show me in your code book the article that states those lights are supposed to be on a GFI".

 

[readydave8]

As Little Bill noted, it was a typo. As we all know the NEC is law as adopted by States, etc. So in this case, the GFI trips and the lights go out. The husband who is a surgeon, falls and hits his head, loosing the use of his hands. He and his wife sue you for millions upon millions of dollars due to what his income would have been had he not fallen due to the lights going out. Your lawyer asks you " please show me in your code book the article that states those lights are supposed to be on a GFI".

Long road ahead if we have to consider all "what ifs"

 

[hillbilly1]

As Little Bill noted, it was a typo. As we all know the NEC is law as adopted by States, etc. So in this case, the GFI trips and the lights go out. The husband who is a surgeon, falls and hits his head, loosing the use of his hands. He and his wife sue you for millions upon millions of dollars due to what his income would have been had he not fallen due to the lights going out. Your lawyer asks you " please show me in your code book the article that states those lights are supposed to be on a GFI".

What about a nuisance trip on an afci breaker? (Yeah, I know, here we go again, LOL!)

 

[ramsy]

I've also randomly had the kitchen lights circuit trip (which is also a dual-function AFCI/GFCI breaker) once.

Keep this crap out of the fuse box.

Random utility/radio noise, and temperature extremes from other breakers kill delicate electronics. The bleeding edge AFCI or GFCI's don't play well unless isolated from utility noise, in wall boxes indoors, behind the long impedance of branch circuit home runs (first openings).

Besides, people need point-of-use reset buttons when working or bathing with wet hands.

Who wants to fumble in fuse boxes to reset a GFCI if lights go out while showering, much less kitchen counters, or laundry?

 

[kwired]

Keep this crap out of the fuse box.

Random utility/radio noise, and temperature extremes from other breakers kill delicate electronics. The bleeding edge AFCI or GFCI's don't play well unless isolated from utility noise, in wall boxes indoors, behind the long impedance of branch circuit home runs (first openings).

Besides, people need point-of-use reset buttons when working or bathing with wet hands.

Who wants to fumble in fuse boxes to reset a GFCI if lights go out while showering, much less kitchen counters, or laundry?

GFCI's don't trip all that much though. If they do there is something wrong. It is the AFCI's that as general rule need to be at the beginning of the circuit that have more nuisance trip issues.

 

[ramsy]

GFCI's don't trip all that much though. If they do there is something wrong. It is the AFCI's that as general rule need to be at the beginning of the circuit that have more nuisance trip issues.

Yes GFCI's are designed to monitor loads only vs AFCI line & load signatures that trip from utility noise.

Most dwellings in my state use a combo meter-center/fuse box outdoors. South facing load centers can bake in the sun all day, and GFCI breakers don't last.

Many CAFCI reset buttons will fail in any fuse box regarless of the elements, and are less reliable than outlet versions.

With one exception I'm aware of all GFCI's still trip near walkie-talkies, other radio antenna, or loads with high-efficiency appliances or speed drives (Fancy bath fans).

That one exception is an AGTR outlet made by Leviton that seems bullet proof to most appliance noise, and I have no idea why, albeit more susceptible to utility noise.

 

[ptonsparky]

Yes GFCI's are designed to monitor loads only vs AFCI line & load signatures that trip from utility noise.

Most dwellings in my state use a combo meter-center/fuse box outdoors. South facing load centers can bake in the sun all day, and GFCI breakers don't last.

Many CAFCI reset buttons will fail in any fuse box regarless of the elements, and are less reliable than outlet versions.

With one exception I'm aware of all GFCI's still trip near walkie-talkies, other radio antenna, or loads with high-efficiency appliances or speed drives (Fancy bath vent fans).

That reminds me...one of my CAFCIs went pfft when I pushed the test button a couple weeks ago. You know, the nice little sound that electronics make as they self destruct. The breaker reset but no longer trips. Imagine that. 12 year old CHBR style. Conditioned basement utility room.

Too busy these days. I forgot.

 

[ramsy]

12 year old CHBR style. Conditioned basement utility room.

That's an amazing long life for an AFCI breaker.

 

[hillbilly1]

That reminds me...one of my CAFCIs went pfft when I pushed the test button a couple weeks ago. You know, the nice little sound that electronics make as they self destruct. The breaker reset but no longer trips. Imagine that. 12 year old CHBR style. Conditioned basement utility room.

Too busy these days. I forgot.

Just replaced one of the gen1 BR afci’s, tripped internally, but not the handle. Reset it, test button no longer worked. The other two in the panel still works. Would have suggested the customer replace the other two, but they probably would have a heart attack on the cost! LOL!

 

[kwired]

Yes GFCI's are designed to monitor loads only vs AFCI line & load signatures that trip from utility noise.

Most dwellings in my state use a combo meter-center/fuse box outdoors. South facing load centers can bake in the sun all day, and GFCI breakers don't last.

Many CAFCI reset buttons will fail in any fuse box regarless of the elements, and are less reliable than outlet versions.

With one exception I'm aware of all GFCI's still trip near walkie-talkies, other radio antenna, or loads with high-efficiency appliances or speed drives (Fancy bath fans).

That one exception is an AGTR outlet made by Leviton that seems bullet proof to most appliance noise, and I have no idea why, albeit more susceptible to utility noise.

Your area brought that on themselves by choosing to put them outdoors.

Around here there is often a basement or garage the panel can go into. Most utilities do require the meter be outside, which IMO I think that is a good thing anyway.

Those variable speed appliances particularly clothes washers need to have the motor frame isolated from the rest of the appliance and the EGC, that usually solves GFCI incompatibility. I've encountered that a couple times and quickly resolved that issue. Where appliance guys said the GFCI was bad. One such appliance even had a "ground switch" that disconnects the EGC from the motor when the access panel is opened, the switch mounting means broke and it was closed with access cover on, every time the motor tried starting the GFCI would trip. Open the switch and it would run fine. Only logic I see to that is nobody is subject to contact ungrounded motor frame as long as the access panel is on, but it is otherwise isolated from everything else so no current leakage to trip the GFCI.

 

[mikeames]

It it's not Code to have the lights on a GFI, then they shouldn't be on a GFI. Lights go out, someone gets injured in the dark.

@pontoon Sparky was making the case that logic does not hold since many are AFCI protected and if that goes then you have the same scenario.

I am now preparing a code change for the NEC 2026, see attachment.

I can't agree with your 9th item for a couple reasons, but the main reason is labeling the grounded conductor still does not prevent the issue you are trying to eliminate. Often shared neutrals are a mistake. Losing track of what circuits are in a box and tying all neutrals together. You could have the same situation but with a label around the neutrals.

 

[kwired]

It it's not Code to have the lights on a GFI, then they shouldn't be on a GFI. Lights go out, someone gets injured in the dark.

It is not required to have lights on a GFCI, as a general rule, it also is not prohibited.

Putting them on GFCI when not required is a design decision and not a code violation.

 

[ramsy]

Your area brought that on themselves by choosing to put them outdoors.

Around here there is often a basement or garage the panel can go into. Most utilities do require the meter be outside, which IMO I think that is a good thing anyway.

Roger that, as if electrical raceways without access in tight attics & ceilings wasn't bad enough, the concrete slabs that break plumbing when they settle & crack is a disaster. The replacement PEX 10yr life expectancy is a time bomb for poor suckers buying resold or flipped property.

 

[mtnelect]

@pontoon Sparky was making the case that logic does not hold since many are AFCI protected and if that goes then you have the same scenario.

I can't agree with your 9th item for a couple reasons, but the main reason is labeling the grounded conductor still does not prevent the issue you are trying to eliminate. Often shared neutrals are a mistake. Losing track of what circuits are in a box and tying all neutrals together. You could have the same situation but with a label around the neutrals.

Thank you for your opinion ! ...

 

[ramsy]

Those variable speed appliances particularly clothes washers need to have the motor frame isolated from the rest of the appliance and the EGC, that usually solves GFCI incompatibility. I've encountered that a couple times and quickly resolved that issue. Where appliance guys said the GFCI was bad.

Thanks for adding this valuable nugget to my knuckle head.