Ground rod in every light pole?

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petersonra

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Northern illinois
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engineer
We're doing a parking lot where the electrical design shows 8' copper ground rod in every light pole. My questions are:
1. What is the function of this copper ground rod in every light pole? Is good, bad or doesn't matter install this ground rod in terms of electrical safety?
Its function is to make the designer feel better about the design and makes more money for the installer. It does not have much to do with electrical safety at all.

2. Isn't enough the EGC running with the circuits conductors feeding the light pole providing a ground fault current path to open the circuit in the event of ground fault?
The ground fault path is always thru the EGC. In fact, the code forbids using the earth as a GF path.

In my understanding the ground rod is not necessary but some expert can clarify this or I'm missing something. Thanks

The code specifically exempts light poles as a structure requiring its own GES. If it required a GES, it would need to have two rods 6 feet apart.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
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Bremerton, Washington
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But if the pole is bolted to anchor bolts and the anchor bolt are embedded in concrete, and the concrete is in the earth what is a ground rod going to add to the party? Some critical thinking is required here.
I have a IEEE study that evaluates the use of reinforcing steel in a concrete foundation for lightning protection. My conclusion from the study is that a street light pole base with reinforcing steel is effective as a ground for protection from lightning. The IEEE study is copyrighted so I cannot post it.
 

hillbilly1

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But if the pole is bolted to anchor bolts and the anchor bolt are embedded in concrete, and the concrete is in the earth what is a ground rod going to add to the party? Some critical thinking is required here.
Under that thinking, then a ufer ground is useless too? How’s that for critical thinking!
 

hillbilly1

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I have a IEEE study that evaluates the use of reinforcing steel in a concrete foundation for lightning protection. My conclusion from the study is that a street light pole base with reinforcing steel is effective as a ground for protection from lightning. The IEEE study is copyrighted so I cannot post it.
If bonded to the pole, then yes, it would be just as or more effective than a ground rod. But I haven’t seen any normal pole base specs requiring that bond.
 
Under that thinking, then a ufer ground is useless too? How’s that for critical thinking!
That makes no sense. I said nothing about the effectiveness of an ufer. If a light pole is already bolted to an ufer, why add a ground rod? And if you really think lightning will change what it does because of the presence or lack of a ground rod, well I have this really really nice bridge in NYC I'm selling for cheap.....
 

marcosgue

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Tampa
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Its function is to make the designer feel better about the design and makes more money for the installer. It does not have much to do with electrical safety at all.


The ground fault path is always thru the EGC. In fact, the code forbids using the earth as a GF path.



The code specifically exempts light poles as a structure requiring its own GES. If it required a GES, it would need to have two rods 6 feet apart.
That exactly what I think and I was watching a video where Mike Holt reject the use of ground rod in lighting pole. Can you specify some scenario where light pole require own GES?
The light pole in this project are made of concrete and insert directly in earth
 

winnie

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Springfield, MA, USA
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Electric motor research
If bonded to the pole, then yes, it would be just as or more effective than a ground rod. But I haven’t seen any normal pole base specs requiring that bond.
That makes no sense. I said nothing about the effectiveness of an ufer. If a light pole is already bolted to an ufer, why add a ground rod? And if you really think lightning will change what it does because of the presence or lack of a ground rod, well I have this really really nice bridge in NYC I'm selling for cheap.....

Question: are normal pole bases made up such that the hold down bolts are not actually well tied to the rebar?

Is it possible that a metal pole could be bolted down with metal bolts in a concrete base and _not_ already essentially have an 'UFER' bonding?

-Jon
 

jaggedben

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Northern California
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Solar and Energy Storage Installer
That exactly what I think and I was watching a video where Mike Holt reject the use of ground rod in lighting pole. Can you specify some scenario where light pole require own GES?
The light pole in this project are made of concrete and insert directly in earth

The only possible justification is some form of lightning protection. For a mere light pole (i.e. just one circuit to the lights, no additonal panel with multiple circuits or anything like that) the NEC does not require a GES and it does zilch to protect from man-made fire or shock hazards.
 
Question: are normal pole bases made up such that the hold down bolts are not actually well tied to the rebar?

Is it possible that a metal pole could be bolted down with metal bolts in a concrete base and _not_ already essentially have an 'UFER' bonding?

-Jon
I don't think there is really any standard. I have only prepped the bases for a few light poles, and I did put a ring of bar around the anchor bolts and tie that to a few verticals.

There is of course the general discussion of an ufer, and an ufer that meets NEC specs. I am talking about the former, and just assuming there is enough metal to concrete contact to still be better than a rod would ever be.
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
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Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
1) Some designers think that they're good for lightning strikes to the pole.

2) Yes, all that is required is an EGC run with the branch circuit to ground the metal parts of the pole. IMO the rods are a waste of money.
I agree, when I was doing street lighting and traffic signals, we always did that. Then we did change to pulling a grounding conductor back to the service, because of the new 170 electronic controllers were picking up noise from the many ground rods. One ground rod is enough at the service.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
That makes no sense. I said nothing about the effectiveness of an ufer. If a light pole is already bolted to an ufer, why add a ground rod? And if you really think lightning will change what it does because of the presence or lack of a ground rod, well I have this really really nice bridge in NYC I'm selling for cheap.....
But the light pole is not already connected to the ufer, the anchor bolts are dropped in after the pour on top of the Sonotube.They are not physically tied to the rebar. Concrete by itself is not a good conductor, it’s the moisture concrete draws. (Caught autocorrect trying to change Sonotube to snottiness) LOL!
 

Joethemechanic

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Location
Hazleton Pa
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Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
But the light pole is not already connected to the ufer, the anchor bolts are dropped in after the pour on top of the Sonotube.They are not physically tied to the rebar. Concrete by itself is not a good conductor, it’s the moisture concrete draws. (Caught autocorrect trying to change Sonotube to snottiness) LOL!

Years ago I was working with Mass Electric (Kewit) on a railroad electrification job in NYC. If I remember right they only tied the anchor bolts to the rebar cages. I wish I could remember the details of the grounding, but I was only on that job until 2008 so my memory is a bit fuzzy
 
But the light pole is not already connected to the ufer, the anchor bolts are dropped in after the pour on top of the Sonotube.They are not physically tied to the rebar. Concrete by itself is not a good conductor, it’s the moisture concrete draws. (Caught autocorrect trying to change Sonotube to snottiness) LOL!
Well dirt isn't a good conductor either. If it makes you sleep better at night then make sure the anchor bolts are connected to the rebar cage
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Years ago I was working with Mass Electric (Kewit) on a railroad electrification job in NYC. If I remember right they only tied the anchor bolts to the rebar cages. I wish I could remember the details of the grounding, but I was only on that job until 2008 so my memory is a bit fuzzy
On commercial light poles, they mount the anchor bolts in a plywood pattern, then after the concrete is poured, the whole assembly is pushed into the wet concrete, and sits on top of the Sonotube to hold it in place.
 
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