Ground rods save lives???

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iowa

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Hello all,
Yet another fist time poster. I am an electrical supervisor for a contractor currently stationed in Iraq. For years now the common meathod of providing power to our servicmembers has been to lay out armored cables on the ground and hook them up. 99% of the time the armor has been cut off at both ends, no neutral to ground bonding at the main or any where else, and a ground rod driven at each living container. QAQC won't sign off on anything unless they see the ground rods. They truely believe that that is what keeps you safe. I have used everything even ohms law to show them that ground rods don't trip breakers or mysteriously send fault current into the ground. I would go bond every panel to help but then we all know what happens when that Hummer drives over the cable and cuts the neutral. Running an additional ground wire or getting to the armor and trying to tie it in is not an option. Any suggestions on making this safer and Code articles to help educate QAQC and even my electricians.
Thanks guys and I look forward to the forum.
 
OK, I was going to stay out of this one but the key here is "99% of the time the armor has been cut off at both ends, no neutral to ground bonding at the main or any where else,"

Thats all I have to say about this one because I know this is not a HV/MV substation. Now I will sit back and enjoy.
 
I think we need to get Mr. Bush to personally call Mr. Holt and have him shipped to a safe place near Iraq where he can give em the news on grounding and bonding safety !! (for a reasonable fee)







(Mr Holt - in your fee please include a small amount to be used for stickers in the other thread ;) )
 
iowa,

NEC 2005 article 320.12, AC cable shall not be used where subject to

physical damage, and shall not be used in damp or wet locations.

320.108, type AC cable shall provide an adequate path for equipment

grounding as required by 250.4(A)(5) or 250.4(B)(4)

250.118 Types of equipment grounding conductors. (note) ground rods are

not in the list.

Personally, I think extra hard duty cord would be safer than AC cable, at

least a truck could drive over it with out causing a short circuit.

QAQC needs to be educated real quick before someone gets killed, and it's

sad to see that these people have so little respect for the lives that are

intrusted to them that they can't open a book or go to a Forum like this one

and find the knowledge expected in the "Q".

I hope this helps your endever, please continue to press the issue.
 
I wish I could figure out how to post a picture. Then I could show you the type of cable we use over here. I have not seen anything like it in the States. It is heavy duty but gets drove on by trucks and tanks daily. With current wiring practices its not fun when it rains. The other day I was shocked when the entire generator, fuel tank, and MDP were "live" The fuel truck driver got a big spark when his nozzle touched the fuel tank. Good thing it was JP-8. One more thing to remember, it is hard for me to show these guys in black and white since we don't have code books.
 
iowa said:
I wish I could figure out how to post a picture. Then I could show you the type of cable we use over here. I have not seen anything like it in the States.
Click to expand...

Iowa, find a image hosting site like photobucket.com and upload your pictures. Then click the little icon on the "Reply to Thread" tool bar. (The icon is yellow and looks like a picture of a mountain.) There will be a window pop up and you will put he URL of your pictures in there.

I hope my directions are as clear as this sign.

traffic_20sign_small.jpg
 
I thought that a ground leash was supposed to be connected between vehicles prior to transferring any jp- fuel ? Don't you guys have safety protocols you are supposed to follow ?
 
In this case the cable that was laying on the ground was about 300 yards long. The armor was cut off at both ends. When the cable was driven over for so long it damaged it. The outer jacked was torn off and the armor was then pushed in to C phase. It happened to have rained the day before. To the best I can figure when he hooked to the ground rod driven there his truck then became energised and there was a difference in potential between the truck and the fuel tank. Does this make sense?

I tell you guys you have to think of things from such a different perspective out here. It is a whole different world. A week or two back we lost a Marine due to electricution in the shower. Maybe Mr. Holt can get us some good grounding literature or power points that will drive home what I am trying to teach these guys. I am a young supervisor and only 27. Most of these guys are much older and stuck in there ways. Maybe, just maybe with backing from you veteran and more qualified members I can start to make a difference and save somones life. I look forward to the advice given in this forum. Oh yeah and I'm 9 hours ahead of you all so there may be a lag in responses. Thanks again.
 
groundrodMDP.jpg


Ok if this works this what we call a ground rod MDP. I have seen much larger. All the way up to 800 amps with many more cables split bolted and ziptied on.
Most are unprotected from contact.

DSC00250.jpg


This one is the cable we use. It can be any where from 10mm to 240mm. Which is around a #6 to 500mcm I think. It is all copper, very expensive and heavy, heavy, heavy. Insulation is 1KV. 4 conductor with steel armor.

tailofgroundwire.jpg


This is what happens when it rains. The fault current from any given load, (usually a small converter for 120 volt things) that has gone bad finds its way to ground bar in panel. From there it finds its way down to ground rod that has been driven. No equipment grouding conductor or bonding is in place. When it rains the soils resistance lowers enough to conduct some electricity and boils the rod and wire till they are dried out and won't allow for any more current flow. SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME START TEACHING THESE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
One more this is my favorite. HV "fuses"

One more this is my favorite. HV "fuses"

newfuses.jpg


Any thing unsafe about this. I guess he just puts a bigger piece of wire in if it keeps blowing.
 
Even carnivals have safer equipment than this.

Show your people the powerpoint in the link earlier in the thread. Understandable by most with a modicum of electrical acumen.

Remeber this. Most people will not admit they have been wrong all these years. I suggest you present it so you are not backing them into a corner. Give them a way to take your suggestion while they can still save face. Maybe even take credit for it. Present it as a way to make your installs even better than they are.

After all, it's not who is right or wrong; it's about saving lives. The marine electrocuted was just tragic and needless death.
 
iowa,

What kind of "code" do you have to follow ? Your answers may be in the

black and white of any legal documentation that is required for electrical

installations, without that you really can't force the issue,imo.
 
Ok, that cable is called Steel Wired Armoured, or SWA. Its great stuff. Normally the steel wire armour is clamped by glands to form the ground path, but you're chopping it off, which is not an unheard of practice.

So you are using European cable, and European voltages, so presumably you should be doing it the European way.

Nothing wrong with having an installation with no bonding, it's a TT network, see this Wikipedia article. TT networks mandate the use of an RCD device (a/k/a a GFCI) as TT networks have too high a ground resistance path to trip breakers.

Fit an RCD and you're good to go.
 
Iowa, Where are you at? I'm at B-1, same problems here. I have been beating my head against the wall about grounding since I got here. The other day we had a call in my AB unit about a sparking ground wire. The whole Ab unit had become energized and the bare ground wire was sparking against the moistened dirt. I had just taken a shower with the whole AB unit at the potential of C phase. Scary!
 
Nothing wrong with having an installation with no bonding, it's a TT network, see this Wikipedia article. TT networks mandate the use of an RCD device (a/k/a a GFCI) as TT networks have too high a ground resistance path to trip breakers.

Fit an RCD and you're good to go.[/QUOTE]


Good article. So if we run a 4 wire circuit from a generator with no neutral/ground bonding how would we get enough fault current to trip even a 30ma RCD. I don't see the circuit there.
 
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