paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
On the plus side...it is very sandy soil that I'm driving them into. That brings up another strike against them, but oh well. Maybe I can talk them into some XIT? ground rods and bentonite. :wink:
Ground Rods
- Thread starter paul
- Start date
- Status
Hello, Bob
Just trying to help in making the act of rod driving a little bit cheerful on Pauls part since the distributor said " that by driving the ground rods, it will increase the lifespan of the electronics inside, which according to him will degenerate over time during electrical storms without a ground rod. " Of course, who could say that 100,000 Amps of lightning won't fry the thing.
Sorry dont mean to cause some lightning bolts to fly. like the one on George's ....very mean..
davidv
es
Just trying to help in making the act of rod driving a little bit cheerful on Pauls part since the distributor said " that by driving the ground rods, it will increase the lifespan of the electronics inside, which according to him will degenerate over time during electrical storms without a ground rod. " Of course, who could say that 100,000 Amps of lightning won't fry the thing.
Sorry dont mean to cause some lightning bolts to fly. like the one on George's ....very mean..
davidv
es
- Location
- Massachusetts
David no problem what so ever and if I was in Pauls position I would drive the rods that the manufacturer wants, they certainly will do no harm and I would not want to leave any excuses for them to look at me for replacement parts.
That said one thing we do here is dispel myths and much of what many people expect a grounding electrode to do is just that...a myth.
Look at 240.4(A)(1)
Forgetting lightning can anyone explain how a connection to earth will limit the voltage applied by 'line surges'?
How about stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation?
IMO it will do neither of those.
That said one thing we do here is dispel myths and much of what many people expect a grounding electrode to do is just that...a myth.
Look at 240.4(A)(1)
Forgetting lightning can anyone explain how a connection to earth will limit the voltage applied by 'line surges'?
How about stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation?
IMO it will do neither of those.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Well, it does give a TVSS something to shoot at...right?iwire said:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Not unless the source of the transient voltage is lightning. Even transients must follow the rules and those currents must be returned to their source, not the earth.
Don
Line surge can occur without lightning. On grounded systems, loss of the grounded conductor will result in unbalanced voltage traveling above nominal. It can/does cause much damage to equipment down stream.
In addition, I found this at http://www.datacenterjournal.com/News/Article.asp?article_id=47
Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor (TVSS) is a device that every data center or mission critical facility should have. Why should every data center have one and what does it do you ask? The purpose of a TVSS is to eliminate or reduce damage to data processing equipment and other critical equipment by limiting transient (surge) voltages and currents (surges) on electrical circuits. These transients or surges may come from inside a facility, or may be injected into a facility from the outside.
What is a transient? A transient surge is a short blast or pulse of high energy that can either come in its natural form such as lightning or produced by other equipment.
Transients caused by other equipment are usually caused by the discharge of stored energy in inductive and capacitive components. Some examples are Electric motors, such as those used in elevators, heating, air conditioning, refrigeration or other inductive loads. Two other sources are arc welders and furnace igniters. These transients are capable of causing significant damage to equipment and electronics.
The transient causes damage to a device when the transient voltage exceeds the weakest exposed component's ability to withstand that voltage. Transients normally flow into equipment via electrical conductors, but other paths are common. These paths include: telephone lines, data-com lines, measurement and control lines, DC power buses and neutral and ground lines.
To protect against these surges designers recommend the installation of a TVSS devices that connects to all points of potential voltage threat and limit this voltage to a level below the equipment "withstand" voltage. The TVSS device absorbs or diverts all the energy present in the surge and clamping or holding the "let through" over voltage down to a level safe for exposed circuitry.
TVSS protection is typically applied at several points throughout a facility. These locations include the service entrance point, distribution panels, branch panels and the individual circuit.
As you can see a TVSS device is important to a mission critical electrical system and its benefits are great. A TVSS is a low cost protection device that will help to reduce downtime or production losses. It helps to extend lighting lamp and ballast life expectancy. The TVSS will help in reducing motor stress and overheating and is a constant protection of data processing and digital equipment.
If your mission critical facility does not already have TVSS devices installed we highly recommend it. If you are not sure if your system has them installed we suggest asking your engineer or electrician to verify. It is a small price for additional peace of mind.
In addition, I found this at http://www.datacenterjournal.com/News/Article.asp?article_id=47
Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor (TVSS) is a device that every data center or mission critical facility should have. Why should every data center have one and what does it do you ask? The purpose of a TVSS is to eliminate or reduce damage to data processing equipment and other critical equipment by limiting transient (surge) voltages and currents (surges) on electrical circuits. These transients or surges may come from inside a facility, or may be injected into a facility from the outside.
What is a transient? A transient surge is a short blast or pulse of high energy that can either come in its natural form such as lightning or produced by other equipment.
Transients caused by other equipment are usually caused by the discharge of stored energy in inductive and capacitive components. Some examples are Electric motors, such as those used in elevators, heating, air conditioning, refrigeration or other inductive loads. Two other sources are arc welders and furnace igniters. These transients are capable of causing significant damage to equipment and electronics.
The transient causes damage to a device when the transient voltage exceeds the weakest exposed component's ability to withstand that voltage. Transients normally flow into equipment via electrical conductors, but other paths are common. These paths include: telephone lines, data-com lines, measurement and control lines, DC power buses and neutral and ground lines.
To protect against these surges designers recommend the installation of a TVSS devices that connects to all points of potential voltage threat and limit this voltage to a level below the equipment "withstand" voltage. The TVSS device absorbs or diverts all the energy present in the surge and clamping or holding the "let through" over voltage down to a level safe for exposed circuitry.
TVSS protection is typically applied at several points throughout a facility. These locations include the service entrance point, distribution panels, branch panels and the individual circuit.
As you can see a TVSS device is important to a mission critical electrical system and its benefits are great. A TVSS is a low cost protection device that will help to reduce downtime or production losses. It helps to extend lighting lamp and ballast life expectancy. The TVSS will help in reducing motor stress and overheating and is a constant protection of data processing and digital equipment.
If your mission critical facility does not already have TVSS devices installed we highly recommend it. If you are not sure if your system has them installed we suggest asking your engineer or electrician to verify. It is a small price for additional peace of mind.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Gmack said:
I think we all agree those things happen however a grounding electrode will not stop the damage from either of those events.
Iwire, Actualy the 8 ground rods combined between the scoreboards would have more "effect" to lightning, much the same as a lightning rod set up. After all, the load is earth. The more rods the better.
Having said that, my experience is that lightning does what it damn well pleases anyway.
Having said that, my experience is that lightning does what it damn well pleases anyway.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Gmack said:
Thats how I think of it as well. 8)
It's mother nature and mother nature does what she wants when she wants.
BUT IWIRE! we must expand all our collective knowledged.
I ask you. Do know that in some parts of the world a 20,000 volt single line is ran to remote housing and they use GROUND RODS/ EARTH to return it back to the sub station.
It had been found that to pour water on "the ground rod" would allow some lights to operate during drought.
Hence. your question, what use has a ground rod?
It would be good if an engineer could elaborate here.
I ask you. Do know that in some parts of the world a 20,000 volt single line is ran to remote housing and they use GROUND RODS/ EARTH to return it back to the sub station.
It had been found that to pour water on "the ground rod" would allow some lights to operate during drought.
Hence. your question, what use has a ground rod?
It would be good if an engineer could elaborate here.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
paul said:
If you are only putting in the ground rods because the instructions say so, than my suggestion is you keep driving rods until you get 10 Ohms too. if the warranty is void because you don't drive the rods, it is equally as void if you don't meet the ten Ohms criteria as well.
My suggestion is drive one rod at each spot, tie it to the steel, and tie them all together with a #4 piece of copper wire underground. With all those rods, the wire, and the steel, if you don't make ten Ohms, it is just not meant to be.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Gmack said:
Yes that is SWER (Single Wire Earth Return)
It works because the supply voltage is in the tens of thousands of volts and they accept a lot of voltage drop in the system.
Try wiring a 100 watt 120 volt lamp between a 120 volt ungrounded conductor and a ground rod. :wink:
Pour as much water on the rod as you want, the lamp will not light or at least not much.
Lets say you have a home service with only a concrete encased electrode and a ground rod.
Now that service loses its neutral at the pole.
Would the electrodes keep items in the house from experiencing wild voltage swings?
No.
Would you be safe if you walked up to the meter socket on the side of this house and touched the meter sockets enclosure?
No.
Lets say in this same house the neutral was repaired but the main bonding jumper was missing.
Would a ground fault trip a breaker?
No
The electrodes do not provide a low impedance back to the source that is required to trip the breaker.
- Location
- Massachusetts
petersonra said:
It was 10 ohms when I left, it must have degraded. :wink:
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
iwire said:
That is really a good idea! 8)
Storm shutters are required for most new homes in this area. On many occasions the contractor will install all the shutters, take pictures, and then remove the shutters. The pictures are left with the permit so the building inspector can see evidence of the shutter installation on final inspection. It stream lines the inspection process so the inspector doesn't have to go out to each house just to see the shutters installed.
They recently caught a builder using the same pictures for different jobs. He made copies of each model built and would leave a picture of the shutters installed on a similar model. He claimed he had only done it on a few occasions however it is possible he had done this several dozen times as this builder puts up close to 1,000 homes a year.
paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
petersonra said:
I guess I failed to mention that I'm volunteering my services to the league. They will get one at each location that's tied to the equipment grounding bar.
If they insist on a ground rod with less than 10 ohms, I would wonder if they have any intention of honoring the waranty anyway. 10 ohms sounds almost impossible. What other impossible installation requirements do they have?
Do they have field service reps? Or do you just ship the thing back if it goes bad? What I'm wondering is are they actually going to verify you put the ground rods in?
Not that I would ever recommend lying.
Do they have field service reps? Or do you just ship the thing back if it goes bad? What I'm wondering is are they actually going to verify you put the ground rods in?
Not that I would ever recommend lying.
Sorry Sir, we can't honor your waranty. The waranty became void when you failed to connect the device to an electr-magnetio-lux-resonator drive as explained on page 173 of the installation instructions.
I vaguely remember hearing something about compaines not being able to void a waranty unless they can prove the "voiding item" actually caused damage. Not sure if it is true or not, and not sure if it would apply.
The first time I heard of this was with photocopiers. Manufacturer's would claim the waranty was void unless you used their toner. Someone told me they couldn't do that.
Steve
I vaguely remember hearing something about compaines not being able to void a waranty unless they can prove the "voiding item" actually caused damage. Not sure if it is true or not, and not sure if it would apply.
The first time I heard of this was with photocopiers. Manufacturer's would claim the waranty was void unless you used their toner. Someone told me they couldn't do that.
Steve
- Status