Ground Wire

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horsegoer said:
Ok so what if spec doesn't ask for it but schedule shows it like in the attached pic. They can claim they require it based on panel schedule, no?
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That would depend on what you bought in the contract. My guess is that the contract would state that you've bought everything on the engineered drawings.
 
In theory, not having an EGC pulled in to conduit especially with metal framing members doesn’t create much risk.
On the other hand, I agree with those who believe in pulling it in for some redundancy. As I’ve personally watched a faulted wire inside conduit shower sparks from a coupling down onto bails of straw, starting a fire. Now yes this was a wooden structure but non-the-less when buildings move, there are a lot greater forces goin on than any piss ant screw or compression connection can withstand.
One thing that irks me is when manufacturers and others make some feeble attempt to bond their apparatuses with some
tiny #22 gauge wire or inferior connection, like grounding has no real purpose for a bolted short. Just increasing risk of spewing sparks all over if something should happen.
 
horsegoer said:
So say you have 3/4" EMT from a receptacle up to a 4" box in the ceiling? You are only pulling H&N?
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Yes, every time I get the chance. And don't even get me started on the 3/4" minimum conduit size. I'd like to find the guy that started that spec and pound him into the other side of the earth and take what's left and throw it in the middle of a two lane bridge at rush hour.
 
Don't t hold back Dave, say what you feel. :giggle:

Roger
 
Years ago I did a group of OR rooms and the engineer specked set screw fittings with a note that compression fittings were not acceptable. When it came time to have the A and E's sign off before the finals started I told him I liked the way he designed the project and asked why he wanted set screw over compression, he said he knew set screws could be tightened in tight spots where compression could not.

Roger
 
horsegoer said:
So say you have 3/4" EMT from a receptacle up to a 4" box in the ceiling? You are only pulling H&N?
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Yes. Why pull an extra conductor that no one is paying for and is not required. On a large project add up all of the additional EGC's and terminations and you will find a significant amount of cost. If that is not included in your bid you will be losing money.
 
infinity said:
Yes. Why pull an extra conductor that no one is paying for and is not required. On a large project add up all of the additional EGC's and terminations and you will find a significant amount of cost. If that is not included in your bid you will be losing money.
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Somewhat the same can be said for 1/2 EMT vs the 3/4 EMT.

If it is specified bid it that way. If you can save them $$ doing it another way, may need the designers blessing, or at very least inform owner it is an alternate design.
 
kwired said:
Somewhat the same can be said for 1/2 EMT vs the 3/4 EMT.

If it is specified bid it that way. If you can save them $$ doing it another way, may need the designers blessing, or at very least inform owner it is an alternate design.
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I agree, give them what they want unless they're asking for you to value engineer the job. I've seen so many dumb spec's over the years, 1" stub ups for a single CAT6 cable, no more than 3 CCC's in any raceway, EMT only even in the walls, #8 EGC's with #12 branch circuit conductors, the list is endless.
 
infinity said:
I agree, give them what they want unless they're asking for you to value engineer the job. I've seen so many dumb spec's over the years, 1" stub ups for a single CAT6 cable, no more than 3 CCC's in any raceway, EMT only even in the walls, #8 EGC's with #12 branch circuit conductors, the list is endless.
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A 1" pipe for a cat6 cable is not overkill! That single cable will double or triple within months! And other cables will probably share that pipe-- phone, cable TV, etc.
 
PaulMmn said:
A 1" pipe for a cat6 cable is not overkill! That single cable will double or triple within months! And other cables will probably share that pipe-- phone, cable TV, etc.
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Over the years, I've appreciated that kind of foresight!

Our 40 year old building had 1" pipes to offices jammed with 25-pair phone cables, 25-conductor parallel printer cables, and twinax cable for the IBM terminals. All replaced with 2 or 3 CAT6, and a RG-6.
 
grich said:
Over the years, I've appreciated that kind of foresight!

Our 40 year old building had 1" pipes to offices jammed with 25-pair phone cables, 25-conductor parallel printer cables, and twinax cable for the IBM terminals. All replaced with 2 or 3 CAT6, and a RG-6.
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And you didn't have to break open the walls to do it! :)
 
PaulMmn said:
A 1" pipe for a cat6 cable is not overkill! That single cable will double or triple within months! And other cables will probably share that pipe-- phone, cable TV, etc.
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Sometimes it is sometimes maybe isn't. Stub from a slab, maybe a good idea to go large if any doubts. Stub from above a suspended ceiling, maybe not as worthwhile to go large.

Some cases 1 inch maybe even isn't enough, but those are where you expect more cables from the start.
 
In my opinion pull the wire you can never be to safe. How many times have we seen conduit, and connectors pulled apart. Remember the code is just the bare minimum anything extra is going above and beyond.
 
Rdcowart said:
How many times have we seen conduit, and connectors pulled apart.
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That has certainly happened. However, say that happens, what are the chances that after that ALL the following happen?:

1. There is not another path back to the source somewhere
2. The conduit break is not repaired
3. A fault happens
4. Someone is injured or a fire occurs.

IMO there are many other things more important in an electrical system that no one seems to care about anymore because everyone is obsessed with grounding.

Also not sure why so many seem to think redundant bonding is so necessary, but no one seems to think redundant OCPD's and GFCI's are a good idea.
 
electrofelon said:
That has certainly happened. However, say that happens, what are the chances that after that ALL the following happen?:

1. There is not another path back to the source somewhere
2. The conduit break is not repaired
3. A fault happens
4. Someone is injured or a fire occurs.

IMO there are many other things more important in an electrical system that no one seems to care about anymore because everyone is obsessed with grounding.

Also not sure why so many seem to think redundant bonding is so necessary, but no one seems to think redundant OCPD's and GFCI's are a good idea.
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Right on!
 
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