ground wires

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ferrarotomvfjr

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I am doing 171 panels in a high rise apartment complex, the inspector approved changing the "guts" of the panels rather than ripping out all off the 10 circuit fpe panels that are currently there. The feeders run from the basement up to the 8th floor being tapped at each floor unit. I am removing the guts and installing 12 circuit ge main breaker guts, My queation is, do I have to also replace the ground bar that is present? There is a 6 screw ground bar, and ther are between 8 and 10 circuits, so there are a few screws with two ground wires under them. Do i need to replace this existing problem?
 
I certainly would change them out. But, on the the other hand, if the inspector is going to let you take the interior out of a G.E. loadcenter and bolt it into a FPE tub, it seems rather hypocritical that he would make you change out the ground bar just because it has a couple of terminals with two wires.

But, as I said, I would anyway. What's a couple bucks for a ground bar ?
 
I am surprised as well that the inspector is allowing this.
(B) Installation and Use Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

As far as the ground bar,article 110.14(A) says that the terminals have to be listed for 2 wires.
(A) Terminals Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors.
Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.
Rick
 
That was what i said!! we just voided any ul listing on both the fpe and the ge load center, but he is making me go back and change them out for literally two screws per panel with two grounds on it, i brought up the fact that there isn't even a ground present other than the pipe, wich brakes at 8 different panels on the way up, but he said that was exceptable.
 
I guess my point is , is this something that the inspector could make me change, even though it is a pre existing condition and I am not touching the grounding bar at all? And it is not just a couple of buck for a ground bar, I now have 171 ground bars from the ge panels I stipped out, It is the man time to go back to 171 panels and change them out, that is a big price time wise!!
 
If he is allowing you to replace the panel guts, I would not stir the pot by arguing over a $3 ground bar. Swap it and thank the inspector for bringing it to your attention.
 
I love the remarks about a "three dollar" ground bar. that is not the isue if it where lets see... 3 X 171 =$513 plus two days to do 171 panels 16 X lets just say 27=$432 thats $ 945, a big bifference from a three dollar gorund bar hugh?
 
I wish I could post a pic of this to share
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Why don't you do just that. This new forum software makes it easy. Under the area where you type in your response, there's a bar to Add image to post . Give it a shot, it's great.
 
What tshea is saying is that there are other issues involved since you're installing one manufacturers equipment in the old panel backbox. He could make you remove the entire existing panel and replace it with a new one. How long would it take to remove 171 panels and reinstall new ones? Sounds to me like your $945.00 problem isn't very big.
 
ferrarotomvfjr said:
I love the remarks about a "three dollar" ground bar. that is not the isue if it where lets see... 3 X 171 =$513 plus two days to do 171 panels 16 X lets just say 27=$432 thats $ 945, a big bifference from a three dollar gorund bar hugh?
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Hello Mr. Ferrarotomvfjr, I've reconsidered and realized the gut swap out voids any UL listing. You will need to completely remove the enclosure and install the complete proper panel.

But, but Mr. Inspector...

$3 dollar ground bar, labor to install 171, $945, Inspector shooting entire job down because of UL listing...priceless!

Good luck!
 
So you plan to change 171 ground bars in 16 man hours. That's about five minutes each not counting walking time from one apartment to the next. You guys are fast , I'll give you that. I hope you don't make any mistakes.
 
Is the the ground bar listed to have two wires under one terminal?

As far as the panel gut being installed in a different brand tub, as long as the cover fits right and there's clearance for the wiring. I don't see a problem.

Does every thing we use HAVE to be listed' or just approved by the AHJ.
 
As I always tell the contractors, "money is no object. We'll get it right if it costs every penny you've got."

Remember, Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in mud, pretty soon you figure out that the pig enjoys it.

Or

Arguing with an inspector is like trying to teach your cat to fly. It's a waste of time and it annoys the cat.
 
i asked about splicing, he wont accept it, and we are doing 25 panel swaps in 8 hours, so the ground bars are not a hard issue, my origanal question was, can an inspector make us change a pre existing condition even if we do not touch the parts in question. this would be a good reference for other issues as well, and no seems to be answering the question, only going on about how easy it would be to just change the bars. I already know that.
 
ferrarotomvfjr said:
my origanal question was, can an inspector make us change a pre existing condition even if we do not touch the parts in question.
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The simple answer is no, but in this case for what you're calling a pre-existing condition, ie.- the ground bar, I would say that yes he does have the right. The reason being is that you're effectively changing the entire panelboard. It seems that once you've done that you need to fix anything within that panelboard. I wold also add that he is wrong on the splicing issue. You could splice together all of the EGC's and land one on the ground bar if you so choose. The stipulation being that the conductor that is tailed off to the ground bar is as large as the largest conductor within the splice.
 
infinity , that is great , do you know an article i could use for that?You could splice together all of the EGC's and land one on the ground bar if you so choose. The stipulation being that the conductor that is tailed off to the ground bar is as large as the largest conductor within the splice.
 
I think your both taking on a huge liabilty here.Your warranty just went out the window.You now have a home made panel with no listing.Bit late for both of you to fix this mess.At this point i would do as he wants and get it over with.My thinking says 15 minutes each if your fast.Call it a week for one guy.How did you bid this job ? ,to change panels or just guts ?Surely you got atleast $200 per and thats a very low number.And to top this all off you used a rather cheap panel that is not much better than what they had to start with :roll:
 
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