Grounded Receptacle Replacement

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jlr134

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My friend has a old 2 flat in Calumet City, Illinois(where they use the Chicago 2000 code...its real close to the NEC 1999) The home inspector red tagged a kitchen counter receptacle because it was ungrounded.The receptacle was a GFCI with a no-equipment ground
marking as per 210.7(d,3,b).He finally called the electrical inspector who after some hobnobbing...agreed that it was legal...but in about 5 minutes he called back to say the GFCI
test switch must be operational.How the heck can the GFCI test function operate in an ungrounded box...theres no ground path for the test fault current .What do you say to an Electrical Inspector who tells you this ?( Rewiring the outlet is impractical)
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

jlr134
The test button on the GFCI will still work without a grounding conductor.
But a plugin style GFCI tester will not trip the GFCI as these do use the grounding conductor to trip the GFCI. But the UL listing says that the test button on the gfct is all that is required to pass. so as long as the button trips the GFCI your good to go.
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

I realize the original post says no egc is installed. But what if an egc is installed and the gfci 'plug in tester' does not trip the gfci recept, are we still good to go, or find the problem with the egc? Why would the egc 'problem' be an issue?
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Brent: Beleive it or not, the only way that a manufacturer allows testing of the device is through pushing of the button.
Click to expand...
Ryan,

I kinda figured that. Can you give me some backup from manufacturers?

Thanks,
Brent
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

BrentP..I tested the GFCI with an external tester
which induces a test ground fault.If there is no EGC there is no ground path for the fault current to take and no imbalance of current in the ungrounded conductor with respect to grounded conductor..the gfci wont trip

Hurk27...You were right I tested it with an external tester...so then if the test button on the GFCI trips the ungrounded GFCI..can I assume that that?test is not electrical because it cannot simulate a ground fault for the above reason, but rather a mechanical test for the trip mechanism?
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Hi Guys,

This is not intended to be rude but, please go to some manufacturers web sites and read the details on how they work OR use the search feature here as there have been many treads covering GFCI's.

No offense intended :D
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

No offense to you either websparky, but what subject has not been covered on this forum in the past? ;) I know how a gfci works , but was wondering if the manufactures' recommended test 'overrides' the results of an 'external tester'.

Am I being lazy, or are my questions on this forum a part of my research?
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

No offence to you WebSparky but..I was unaware that Mike Holt had passed away and left you his forum.With the same amount of effort it took to "Not be rude" you could have shown people
how intelligent you are like the other guys who
bothered to answer this post instead of...oh well.This forum used to be a place where electricians could come and get their questions answered...even stupid questions and Ive seen alot worse questions than how a GFCI test switch electrically works but I guess that now that the forum is under new management ....
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Thanks Bill!

Guys,

I am sorry you have taken this the in a manner that I did not intend.

I am in no way speaking for Mike or this forum. These are my personal opinions and I alone will take the heat for them.

That said, I still offer my advice as to a method that has served me well at this forum by using the search feature. There is a tremendous amount of great info here and often times my questions are answered as a result of seaching here or using google.

My apologies,
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

websparky,

Who loves ya' man?

BTW, I've found that gfci recepts should be installed grd pin up to perform properly. :D

Brent
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

jlr134
The test button on a GFCI as well as a AFCI and even a GFP. Has a resistor sized for about 6 to 7 ma of current that bypasses the current coil from the line neutral to the load hot. this will simulate a ground fault just as well as using a grounding conductor since the line side neutral of a GFCI is directly connected to the grounding at the service disconnect. This does not describe why this works but just gives you the idea why the manufactures use this method and UL list this method for testing the GFCI's. The true reason this work's is because any current not passing through the current coil will cause current to flow in the coil causing the GFCI to trip. but that's another thread.
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Thanks Brent!

I believe the grounding hole location is relevent to the hemisphere in which you reside. Of course, this only matters on week days as weekends have no substantial effect. :roll:
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Dave
I know most of us have seen question's like this one and many others like it, and we will see this again many more times this is because we will always see new electrican's flow through here just like the BMV will see new kids getting the first driver's licenses. This will never stop and I hope it wont as it helps me keep up with the code and the understanding on how some things work. I know there was nothing meant by what you said as you were only trying to let them know about the search capability on this web site as slow as it is. I enjoy helping others when I can no matter how simple the question. I can remember when I was asking these same questions and with GFCI's it wasn't that long ago. Just remember that we all had to learn too. I just wish I had the resource's like this great site back when I got into this business. I think I had a Vic 20 back then but all I could get it to do was a few card tricks and that was after three days of hunt and pecking at the keyboard. LOL :roll:
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Hurk 27...Thanks.You knew right away that I was using an external tester and that I had assumed that because the external tester applies an ground fault that the unit test button would too
...Its a shame that it took 2 pages of posts before someone could say that instead of telling me to look elsewhere and then telling me
about the relative position of the ground hole.
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

...Its a shame that it took 2 pages of posts before someone could say that
Click to expand...
jlr134,

This is not a fair statement. As far as I can tell you got this information within the first two comments posted. As far as I know no one here is a mind reader and consideration should go both ways.

Bill
 
Re: Grounded Receptacle Replacement

Brent
BTW, I've found that gfci recepts should be installed grd pin up to perform properly.

If this is the case why are GFCI buttons labeled so it can be installed either way?

I must be missing something and not intending to be negative. I have not had this problem, can you give specifics?
 
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