grounding electrodes

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Re: grounding electrodes

As I understand antique telegraphy; earth and even sometimes railroad ties were used as the return current for cross-country telegraph lines. This was acheived by grounding the system to a metal plate and attaching a #6 awg conductor. I imagine that in order for the system to operate properly and effectively, a low ground resistance was necessary. Perhaps 25-ohms was the magic number.

This still doesn't explain why it is used for today's electrical systems.
 
Re: grounding electrodes

Exactly Bryan.
Where did 25 ohms to ground originate? What does it achieve? If we had 200 ohms as in some I measured (I am sure there are much higher readings), would it make a difference (generally speaking) if it was 25, 50, 100, 200, etc....

This leads me back to 1 ground rod would be fine - it is supplemental. There are many installations that are in place today where the cold water is all that is connected, and as far as I know, they all operate just fine... okay maybe not all, but some do :D
 
Re: grounding electrodes

would it make a difference (generally speaking) if it was 25, 50, 100, 200, etc....
Pierre -

I agree and maybe even go a little farther. I don't have any evidence that one rod makes an electrical system any safer than no rods.


Whatever else might be said about this subject, this is one true-life example of "two is better than one." That is not debatable...
Charlie -

I absolutely appreciate your knowledge, but I missed the reasoning behind the true-life absolute certainty that says two rods are better than one.

carl
 
Re: grounding electrodes

Originally posted by coulter:. . . I missed the reasoning behind the true-life absolute certainty that says two rods are better than one.
The reasoning is that two or more resistances in parallel will have an equivalent resistance that is smaller than any of the resistances alone. If low resistance (i.e., from one rod) is good, then lower resistance (i.e., from more than one rod) must necessarily be better.
 
Re: grounding electrodes

George I did say would like not mandate it.It`s all about courtesey George ,coutesey.That is why I get nextelled rather that tagged for a minor infraction.one hand washes the other and they both wash the backs .
If I have a crew down the street and I call them to see what the inspector wants.That saves a return trip of a crew to correct a violation,which in turns allows the gears to turn normally.
Maybe if you tried more honey you`d pass more inspections.You remind me of the 1st journeyman I worked with way back when I was a baby electrician.I showed up 10 min early and he said cutting it close huh.He introdcued hinself
"Hi I`m richie and I am a sc%$&ag and proud of it
Oh and he meant it,but after 6 months he turned one morning and said ("It`s about time")As we drove to the first job that day he turned again and said (IGGY that was my name to him )Youve lasted this long so I guess it`s time to teach you.That was in 1973. I stayed for 5 years and moved on but he was the best teacher I have met.I only hope your arrogance has the foresight to weed out the bad and teach the ones that will make a fine electricians some day.
I`m sure there are others with simular stories.Me I have trained 100`s of guys that turned to become good electricians,I feel so good when I run into one thst says thanks for being so hard on me.It made me think before I do something.In retrospect I guess I`d say keep the AHJ happy,Don`t let your helper slide by with I guess that will do.Last but not least honey is cheaper than getting tagged :D
 
Re: grounding electrodes

12 ounce curls again Allen?

Roger
 
Re: grounding electrodes

Charlie
This reply is informational, so do not take it like I am disagreeing with you.

"The reasoning is that two or more resistances in parallel will have an equivalent resistance that is smaller than any of the resistances alone. If low resistance (i.e., from one rod) is good, then lower resistance (i.e., from more than one rod) must necessarily be better."

In reality, there is generally not a "low resistance" at the ground rod(s). Adding one or two rods does not really mean a whole lot in the scheme of grounding (grounding of standard type buildings).

So what is the reason for the second ground rod? Why or how did that 25 ohms come into play. What is 25 ohms really going to do?

It would seem to me that no one really knows - or cares - about the 25 ohms to ground. So, how did the second ground rod requirement ever come about?
 
Re: grounding electrodes

Originally posted by roger:
12 ounce curls again Allen?

Roger
No roger and why would that matter,all I spoke was the truth.Plain and simple,have a working rapore with your AHJ is as important as doing the job right ;)
So out goes the bad 12 in goes the good 12 repeat till electrician stops trying to make a mountain out of s mole hill ;)
 
Re: grounding electrodes

Originally posted by pierre: In reality, there is generally not a "low resistance" at the ground rod(s). Adding one or two rods does not really mean a whole lot in the scheme of grounding (grounding of standard type buildings).
I suspect you are right, in that adding a second rod might not change anything significant, especially if the first one had a high contact resistance. But I will continue to assert that two rods will have (about) half the resistance of one rod. The real question, as I stated above, is whether the benefit you get from the second rod is worth the cost. I do not know that answer.
Originally posted by pierre: So what is the reason for the second ground rod? Why or how did that 25 ohms come into play.
I do not know the history. I have three guesses. They are probably all three wrong, and they are not entirely consistent with each other. But it's OK to say something untrue, when you warn the reader that it might be untrue. :p

My first guess really is along the lines that I had mentioned above. The code committee members probably thought about requiring a certain maximum resistance. But then they realized that it could not be reasonably achieved in all areas of the country. The "two rods" was probably just a simple way to get a reasonable installation, without making the rule any more complicated than it needed to be.

My second guess is that the "25 ohms" was the compromise, not the "two rods." In other words, the committee probably wanted to just say "install two rods." But then some member said "What if the resistance of the first is low enough? Why should we make them install a second if the first one has a low enough resistance." So rather than making everyone install two, they added the bit about "one rod is all you need, if the ground resistance is low enough."

There was probably some debate about how low is low enough, before they settled on 25 ohms. My final guess is that the number 25 was just a "reasonably small number" and a "reasonably round number." The explanation that Mike shared at the G&B Seminar (as I described above) is more likely to be the experiment that showed that 25 ohms was achievable, and not likely to be the experiment that determined that 25 ohms was a good value to select for the rule.
 
Re: grounding electrodes

Originally posted by allenwayne:
So out goes the bad 12 in goes the good 12 repeat till electrician stops trying to make a mountain out of s mole hill ;)
Exactly, George hasn't posted in this thread since Saturday, so why are you replying to his post again here on Tuesday?

Didn't you say enough before, or are you trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Roger
 
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