Grounding Question.

[jxofaltrds]

Mike we are saying the same things. I personally think ground rods are worthless and perhaps has more value when there are more circuits involved. I just very little value in a ground rod- and perhaps 2 rods, for a single 2 wire circuit with or without ground. I never liked the neutral being hooked to the GEC even when it was legal. They changed it for a reason.

Dennis

I respect (all) the posts that you have entered here on this forum. I do not understand your stance on ground rods.

 

[hurk27]

Dennis

I respect (all) the posts that you have entered here on this forum. I do not understand your stance on ground rods.

I do

Its because of threads like these below, which have proved that a ground rod installed to NEC standards does little to nothing to protect a building or persons from shock hazard.

Trouble shooting customer getting shocked at hose bib

boat lift shocking

Can a ground fault through dirt trip the OCPD?

Ground Rod at a construction trailer Y or NO

Earth Shells Experiment = time to eat crow!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Mike, the purpose of a ground rod is basically for lightning protection to the circuit. Rarely can rods give enough protection from surges never mind a lightning strike. I would need a minimum of 6 ohms on a rod just to be able to trip a 20 amp breaker.

If you were to drive a rod and hook up a hot wire from a 20 breaker to the rod it would probably never trip unless by some miracle you get 6 ohms or less at the rod.

Even installed properly the rods sole purpose is lightning protection. For a circuit for lighting and a recep. at a remote garage I see it as a waste of money.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I do

Its because of threads like these below, which have proved that a ground rod installed to NEC standards does little to nothing to protect a building or persons from shock hazard.

Trouble shooting customer getting shocked at hose bib

boat lift shocking

Can a ground fault through dirt trip the OCPD?

Ground Rod at a construction trailer Y or NO

Earth Shells Experiment = time to eat crow!

I did not know that its purpose was to protect people or buildings from a shock hazard???

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike, the purpose of a ground rod is basically for lightning protection to the circuit. Rarely can rods give enough protection from surges never mind a lightning strike. I would need a minimum of 6 ohms on a rod just to be able to trip a 20 amp breaker.

If you were to drive a rod and hook up a hot wire from a 20 breaker to the rod it would probably never trip unless by some miracle you get 6 ohms or less at the rod.

Even installed properly the rods sole purpose is lightning protection. For a circuit for lighting and a recep. at a remote garage I see it as a waste of money.

Dennis and Wayne

You are way off base on this one.

http://www.mikeholt.com/reprint_request.php?url=http://mikeholt.com/graphics/touch.gif

http://www.mikeholt.com/reprint_request.php?url=http://mikeholt.com/graphics/touch2.gif

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I did not know that its purpose was to protect people or buildings from a shock hazard???

IMO, it's not

 

[hurk27]

Ok your going that route Lightning

Well I even got a report for lightning that proves ground rods are worthless via test done at Camp Blanding done by The IEC Technical Committee 81.

Lightning Protection and Ground Rods

This test was done way after Mikes graphics were published.

 

[hurk27]

Dennis and Wayne

You are way off base on this one.

http://www.mikeholt.com/reprint_request.php?url=http://mikeholt.com/graphics/touch.gif

http://www.mikeholt.com/reprint_request.php?url=http://mikeholt.com/graphics/touch2.gif

E'rrr are we saying the same thing? both those Graphics show why ground rods don't work?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis and Wayne

You are way off base on this one.

That's fine-- you believe what you want. I am happy in my thoughts. :grin:

 

[jxofaltrds]

I was kidding "I did not know that its purpose was to protect people or buildings from a shock hazard???"

So I did read you guys correctly that you think ground rods are not effective. Correct?

Maybe I am off base here.

Do you have the same feeling for other electrodes or just ground rods.

 

[K8MHZ]

I was kidding "I did not know that its purpose was to protect people or buildings from a shock hazard???"

So I did read you guys correctly that you think ground rods are not effective. Correct?

Maybe I am off base here.

Do you have the same feeling for other electrodes or just ground rods.

Just sticking a rod in the ground is nearly always useless. Scientific tests (as indicated above) prove that.

A rod is not the same as a tested electrode system. It's not even close.

Take some time to read the info on this site: www.polyphaser.com

There are scads of tech notes and they are very good. As a radio operator (we tend to build big metal pointy things and put them up high for lightning to strike) I know what works for lightning protection and what doesn't.

A rod, even two, don't get it.

I have discussed the value of ground rods for AC mains with the most strict inspectors I know and we all agree, a rod or two is NOT an effective means to provide lightning protection. At best, they will offer some protection on limited surges, but the tons of electronic devices that have been destroyed by relatively minor surges may beg to differ.

The rods and values (25 ohms) were are left overs from the land line telegraph days. The rods were meant to be part of an SWER communications system and that is how they were designed. Lightning and surge protection was never even considered back then. Somehow, that archaic system ended up as a required part of our AC mains system and now we are stuck with it.

Effective bonding works. Earthing with rods just makes people think they are safe. In order to provide adequate lightning protection, there are ways to make an earth connection that will work. The telcos are really good at it. But we are talking about an entire system, not a rod or two with a hunk of wire clamped to it.

Properly bonded concrete encased electrodes are common. The Polyphaser site discusses other options, including systems that use rods. The connections and conductors are also discussed. If you look at tall communication structures you may notice that the conductors to the electrodes are not wire. They are flat wide strips of copper about .050" thick.

So, count me in with Dennis and Hurk.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Thank you for the link and info.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Do you have the same feeling for other electrodes or just ground rods.

Absolutelt not. I am a firm believer in the CEE, for one, but everything does have limits. I have gotten as low as 13 ohms with a CEE and on the same site got 89 ohms with 2 rods. Now- you tell me.