habitable rooms
- Thread starter kman
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: habitable rooms
The question of which room requires a smoke detector is outside the scope of the NEC. My view of "habitable room," as used in the context of 210.70, would include any kitchen, dining room, breakfast room, living room, den, library, lounge, and bathroom. Since hallways, stairways, garages, and basement storage areas have their own rules, I infer that these are not included in "habitable rooms."
The question of which room requires a smoke detector is outside the scope of the NEC. My view of "habitable room," as used in the context of 210.70, would include any kitchen, dining room, breakfast room, living room, den, library, lounge, and bathroom. Since hallways, stairways, garages, and basement storage areas have their own rules, I infer that these are not included in "habitable rooms."
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: habitable rooms
Habital yes,bedroom maybe.Will you be able to live with yourself if a kid dies in a fire because the room was used as a bedroom.We all know that people will not care what the room is called.They will use it for what they want
Habital yes,bedroom maybe.Will you be able to live with yourself if a kid dies in a fire because the room was used as a bedroom.We all know that people will not care what the room is called.They will use it for what they want
Re: habitable rooms
Habitable room--a room with heat.
Check with your Bldg Dept for their definition.
by jimwalker:Habital yes,bedroom maybe.Will you be able to live with yourself if a kid dies in a fire because the room was used as a bedroom.We all know that people will not care what the room is called.They will use it for what they want.
Nice thought. Do want a smoke detector in every room, including bathrooms? You can only protect some people far enough. At some point they need to take responsibility for themselves.
How do you handle battery operated smoke detectors? As soon as they are installed the tenants (renters) will remove the battery. The local Fire Dept installed many of these smokes a couple years ago. It would be interesting to see how many are still functional.
Habitable room--a room with heat.
Check with your Bldg Dept for their definition.
by jimwalker:Habital yes,bedroom maybe.Will you be able to live with yourself if a kid dies in a fire because the room was used as a bedroom.We all know that people will not care what the room is called.They will use it for what they want.
Nice thought. Do want a smoke detector in every room, including bathrooms? You can only protect some people far enough. At some point they need to take responsibility for themselves.
How do you handle battery operated smoke detectors? As soon as they are installed the tenants (renters) will remove the battery. The local Fire Dept installed many of these smokes a couple years ago. It would be interesting to see how many are still functional.
larryl
Senior Member
- Location
- wrentham ma.
Re: habitable rooms
STUDY,,=SWITCH
STUDY,,=SWITCH
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: habitable rooms
To think all this time I have been sticking receptacles in unhabitable bedrooms, kitchens, living rooms, dens, etc, etc, etc . We got down to 62 one night earlier in the month. The entire population was bundled up like we were about to freeze to death, myself included. BRRRRRRR.
Holy cow, its been 30 years since I wired for heat in a room.
To think all this time I have been sticking receptacles in unhabitable bedrooms, kitchens, living rooms, dens, etc, etc, etc . We got down to 62 one night earlier in the month. The entire population was bundled up like we were about to freeze to death, myself included. BRRRRRRR.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Re: habitable rooms
I remember back to a architectural drawing class that I had in college, they said that a bedroom had to be like 9'x10' or something AND have a window and a closet.
I have a house that I am bidding on that has a enclosed "mud room" (or whatever) between the 4000sqft house and 3 car garage. I'm wondering about 210-52(A) concerning it.
I remember back to a architectural drawing class that I had in college, they said that a bedroom had to be like 9'x10' or something AND have a window and a closet.
I have a house that I am bidding on that has a enclosed "mud room" (or whatever) between the 4000sqft house and 3 car garage. I'm wondering about 210-52(A) concerning it.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: habitable rooms
IRC R304.2 mandates that habitable rooms have not less that 70 square feet, except for kitchens. Seems to me that 4 x 8 and 8 x 8 would not qualify as habitable rooms.
IRC R304.2 mandates that habitable rooms have not less that 70 square feet, except for kitchens. Seems to me that 4 x 8 and 8 x 8 would not qualify as habitable rooms.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: habitable rooms
John, can you post the text from the IRC?
John, can you post the text from the IRC?
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: habitable rooms
From the 2003 IRC:
Section R304 Miminum Room Areas
R304.1 Minimum Area. Every dwelling unit shall have at least one habitable room that shall have not less than 120 square feet of gross floor area.
R304.2 Other rooms. Other habitable rooms shall have a floor area of not less than 70 square feet.
Exception: Kitchens.
R304.3 Minimum Dimensions. Habitable rooms shall not be less than 7 feet in any horizontal dimension.
Exception. Kitchens.
edit spelling
[ February 26, 2006, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: j_erickson ]
From the 2003 IRC:
Section R304 Miminum Room Areas
R304.1 Minimum Area. Every dwelling unit shall have at least one habitable room that shall have not less than 120 square feet of gross floor area.
R304.2 Other rooms. Other habitable rooms shall have a floor area of not less than 70 square feet.
Exception: Kitchens.
R304.3 Minimum Dimensions. Habitable rooms shall not be less than 7 feet in any horizontal dimension.
Exception. Kitchens.
edit spelling
[ February 26, 2006, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: j_erickson ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: habitable rooms
John, you are the man.
I'm going to forward this thread to the well-intentioned inspector who required me to add an outlet to the end of a short hallway, because of the 4' x 4' "loft" at the end.
John, you are the man.
I'm going to forward this thread to the well-intentioned inspector who required me to add an outlet to the end of a short hallway, because of the 4' x 4' "loft" at the end.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Re: habitable rooms
Okay, I was close. John, did it say anything about the window or closet?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: habitable rooms
Is a hallway defined?
Is a hallway defined?
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: habitable rooms
Here are some definitions from the:
Property Maintenance Code of NY State
101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to all existing residential and nonresidential structures and all existing premises and constitute minimum requirements and standards for premises, structures, equipment, and facilities for light, ventilation, space, heating, sanitation, protection from elements, life safety, safety from fire and other hazards, and for safety and sanitary maintenance; the occupancy of existing structures and premises;and for administration, enforcement and penalities.
Basement. That portion of a building which is partly or completely below grade.
Bathroom. a room containing plumbing fixtures including a bathtub or shower.
Habitable Space. Space in a structure for living,sleeping, eating or cooking, Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces, and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces.
Here are some definitions from the:
Property Maintenance Code of NY State
101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to all existing residential and nonresidential structures and all existing premises and constitute minimum requirements and standards for premises, structures, equipment, and facilities for light, ventilation, space, heating, sanitation, protection from elements, life safety, safety from fire and other hazards, and for safety and sanitary maintenance; the occupancy of existing structures and premises;and for administration, enforcement and penalities.
Basement. That portion of a building which is partly or completely below grade.
Bathroom. a room containing plumbing fixtures including a bathtub or shower.
Habitable Space. Space in a structure for living,sleeping, eating or cooking, Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces, and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: habitable rooms
You were close.
I was addressing the question of habitable room. But a bedroom must have at least one operable window with a sill height of not more than 44 inches, clear opening of 3.3 square feet, and minimum net clear opening of 20 inches by 24 inches in either direction. This is from the MA building code. I don't have IRC with me, but the requirements are similar if not exact. I'll check when I get home. I don't think that there is a requirement for a closet.
You were close.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: habitable rooms
IRC is similar to MA building code except minimum opening area is 5.7 square feet, unless on grade level where it is permitted to be 5.0 square feet.
IRC is similar to MA building code except minimum opening area is 5.7 square feet, unless on grade level where it is permitted to be 5.0 square feet.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Re: habitable rooms
"Habitable room" is, of necessity, somewhat fuzzy. While size is a major part of the determination, I would not consider it the only factor.
I would also consider what the room is used for, traffic patterns, it's location within the home, original intent, and actual use. Remodelling might effect a change.
I recently worked on a $1.5 Million "tract home." This home had a number of areas that raised the question.
There was a room, maybe 6 ft wide and 20 ft long, that was located under a stair, and contained a sump pump. While I suppose one could put a couple of cots in there....I seriously doubt it would be used for anything but storage. So it's probably not "habitable."
The entry from the garage was into a room, maybe 8' x 10', that contained laundry equipment, and a door on either end. A "mud room," if you will. Not habitable.
Between the master bath and the master bedroom was a room, easily 12' x 12' with no receptacles, one light, and an attic access hatch. The plans called it a "closet." I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
On the lower lever was a room with direct outdoor access, completely finished and carpeted, and at least 12' x 20, with attached full bath. Yup. Habitable- even if the plans said "storage."
Similar problems accompany defining a "bedroom." In this same house, there are two rooms next to a bedroom, with direct hall access, and the same size as the bedroom. Unlike every bedroom
in the house, these rooms do not have their own bathrooms- though one does have a door leading to one. Neither has a closet- though one has an inset in the wall that sure looks like a closet missing a door! The plans call these rooms "office" and "library." To me, it's a coin toss.
If I were the AHJ, I'd have to accept the plan designations. If I were the electrician, I'd put them on AFCI's anyway. In a few years, when this place is on the market, I can almost guarantee the realtor calling them "bedrooms."
"Habitable room" is, of necessity, somewhat fuzzy. While size is a major part of the determination, I would not consider it the only factor.
I would also consider what the room is used for, traffic patterns, it's location within the home, original intent, and actual use. Remodelling might effect a change.
I recently worked on a $1.5 Million "tract home." This home had a number of areas that raised the question.
There was a room, maybe 6 ft wide and 20 ft long, that was located under a stair, and contained a sump pump. While I suppose one could put a couple of cots in there....I seriously doubt it would be used for anything but storage. So it's probably not "habitable."
The entry from the garage was into a room, maybe 8' x 10', that contained laundry equipment, and a door on either end. A "mud room," if you will. Not habitable.
Between the master bath and the master bedroom was a room, easily 12' x 12' with no receptacles, one light, and an attic access hatch. The plans called it a "closet." I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
On the lower lever was a room with direct outdoor access, completely finished and carpeted, and at least 12' x 20, with attached full bath. Yup. Habitable- even if the plans said "storage."
Similar problems accompany defining a "bedroom." In this same house, there are two rooms next to a bedroom, with direct hall access, and the same size as the bedroom. Unlike every bedroom
in the house, these rooms do not have their own bathrooms- though one does have a door leading to one. Neither has a closet- though one has an inset in the wall that sure looks like a closet missing a door! The plans call these rooms "office" and "library." To me, it's a coin toss.
If I were the AHJ, I'd have to accept the plan designations. If I were the electrician, I'd put them on AFCI's anyway. In a few years, when this place is on the market, I can almost guarantee the realtor calling them "bedrooms."
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: habitable rooms
The AFCI ain't a big deal, easy fix. But adding a smoke can be a pain in the rear if the call comes late.
Not around here, John. If there is a closet, regardless of how small, that office is a bedroom. Hence, my undying interest in what the IRC has to say about it.
The AFCI ain't a big deal, easy fix. But adding a smoke can be a pain in the rear if the call comes late.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Re: habitable rooms
Off subject, sort of, can anybody speak about this room? It is 12' x 24' and has a door and windows to both the front & back. Is it habitable? Would 210-52 apply?
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