HAR hook up wire

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chevy1969pu

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I have been in a debate I hope you can settle for me... There is a type HAR "hook up wire", PVC jacketed without marking on the wire. Advertised as UL listed and North America Standards approved.

http://www.lappusa.com/Spec_Template3.asp?nGroupID=5045

I can't find this type of wire listed in the NEC and I personally feel we should not be using it... (PVC jacket potential for posionous fumes).

The arguements for use include it's compact size and that it allows for tighter bending and forming inside enclosures, thereby allowing what I would consider overcrowding of the enclosure.

This would be for industrial control panels in a manufacturing plant...

Thanks for your help
 
chevy1969pu said:
This would be for industrial control panels in a manufacturing plant...
Click to expand...

Although I could not find a reference, I believe that control panels are outside the scope of the NEC. That said...this cable looks listed to me, why should you not use it?
 
If cable is UL listed give UL's regulatory services department a call, toll-free number: 1-800-595-9844 they should be able to give you the information that your looking for.
 
My main objections are:

- Should not be used as interconnection wiring between panels.
- Noxious fumes
- Over crowding the panel... The fact that the wire is about 1/2 the size of MTW allows for putting too many conductors in a panel that was basically too small to start with...
 
Per NFPA 79:

NFPA79_12_4.jpg
 
Hi Don,

I have used THHN/TFFN for interconnecting wire and MTW for panel wiring. I've been warned in the past about PVC hookup wire, due to the problems it creates in a fire...

I did a quick web search and found this information:
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Toxicity of Materials
Why is zero halogen better?
Two halogens-chlorine and fluorine-are extensively used in compounds for insulating and jacketing electrical wire and cable. Many common materials like PVC, Hypalon?, Neoprene?, and FEP and PTFE Teflon? contain significant amounts of these halogens. PVC, for example, contains 29% chlorine by weight; CPE 19% chlorine by weight; and Teflon has 76% fluorine by weight.

Halogenated compounds are normally very stable. When they burn, however, the halogens separate and become highly reactive, forming very toxic, extremely dangerous and corrosive gasses that can significantly damage organic, inorganic and metallic materials. The hydrogen chlorine gas produced from burning PVC, for example, is similar to mustard gas.

Corrosion Index
These halogenated gasses are dangerous because when in contact with water they immediately form acid. The chlorine from PVC makes hydrochloric acid and the fluorine from Teflon makes hydrofluoric acid, both of which are among the strongest and most corrosive acids. The water source that the gasses use to form these acids can be found almost anywhere-moisture in the eyes, throat and lungs of individuals with whom it comes in contact, as well as fire sprinkler systems and even humidity in the air.

Fires involving the combustion of halogenated materials can be devastating. Inhalation of dangerous fumes can cause serious harm or even death to humans. Acid rain and fumes can quickly destroy expensive industrial and computer equipment.

Decomposition of PVC Under Combustion
Cables containing halogens also produce significantly higher levels of carbon monoxide (CO) gas during combustion. Emission levels of this dangerous and potentially lethal gas are reduced by as much as 360% in non-halogenated cable constructions.
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Mike,
As a firefighter, I just don't see that much of an issue with the wire insulation found in a control panel or even in a normal building. The amount of toxic gasses that come from the burning building finishes and furnishings will far exceed that from any mechanical or electrical system materials. Now if you are talking about a telephone switching center of other occupancy with extensive amounts of wiring, I would take a look at the insulation type.
 
Remember that most THHN insulation _is_ PVC.

What is the plastic used to make the terminal blocks and other control panel components?

-Jon
 
Thats what Europeans call tri-rated switchgear wire. It's purpose is so you can build a piece of equipment which passes regulatory hurdles in USA, Canada and Europe. Within the USA it is not intended to address the NEC, only UL, thus you cant rely on its tri-ratedness for using it for wiring covered by the NEC.

Now this is the odd thing: I have several rolls of this stuff, and the stuff I have does have markings on the insulation, and I'm fairly sure that UL requires said markings...
 
Okay, I see that the majority opinion is that this wire type is okay to use... I can accept that...

I have been accused of being hard-headed and arguementative at times... go figure... : )

I just have a hard time looking at this wire in a panel when the insulation is 1/2 the size of MTW wire and it's supposed to be "apples to apples" in it's application...

Kinda like looking at a NEMA rated line starter and an Equivalent IEC rated line starter...

If UL says it's ok, then I'm sure it is...

Thanks for everyone's input on this!!
 
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