Hardware store advice liability?

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Unfortunately, this kludge works. It's an effective -- if unsafe -- method of connecting a generator to a house without doing any house wiring. And many people won't look beyond "Will it work"?

There is some good news: I did an Internet search for male-to-male cords and found they're not widely available. I also did a photograph search, and most of the photographs of a male-to-male cord I found were captioned "Never do this!" and accompanied by an article outlining the correct way to do it.
 
About 12 years ago we had a major ice storm that took down a lot of rural power lines, many customers were out for up to two weeks, myself included (I was off for 10 days). I just moved into my new house that year and still had things on the longer term to do list, such as setting up a method to connect a generator. POCO already provided me with a transfer switch on the main distribution pole but I never had a method to connect a generator to it. Then this ice storm comes up and I wasn't prepared, plus I also had many calls from others that weren't prepared. I did connect a generator to my shop panel, backfeeding a breaker in there, shut off POCO main at the pole (which was the transfer switch. Did this partly because the generator just worked out better at that location then to use it at the pole. I knew very well that I needed to disconnect that generator before turning utility power back on - yet after several days without power you get anxious to have utility power again. When power was back on generator was out of gas and not running but still connected, I caught myself almost turning the main switch on before disconnecting generator. Could possibly damaged my generator if I would have done that, or left me with a hot male end if I unplugged from generator before turning back fed breaker off.

My point is even an electrical professional that is supposed to know better can still make a mistake when cheating things like this.

Once I got to doing things the way I wanted them set up the generator side of my transfer switch runs back to the shop where I do have a place to connect a generator. Now that it is all set up correctly have never needed to use it, but at same time hope I never do.

Most the other clients I helped out at that time were also desperate to run a generator but had no proper transfer equipment, and were not going to get any transfer equipment installed before utility power was restored. In makeshift connections fashion I still made sure to somehow mechanically disable utility feed so that a simple throw of a switch can not interconnect utility and generator. This usually meant I would have to come back once utility is restored and reconnect something I disabled though, but I did not want them to be able to easily interconnect utility and their generator.
 
LarryFine said:
A friend of mine has an assembled double-male-ended cord that was actually supplied by a generator manufacturer.
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I have heard that type of cord called a "widow maker." But I will admit I actually considered allowing such a thing on a project once (long, long ago). It was a theater remodel. The person who handled lighting wanted two nearby enclosures to have a series of jacks into which a cord can be plugged. The cords would be double-male, and would bring power from one enclosure (the power source) to the jacks in the other enclosure that would give power to whichever lights they needed to use for the next show. I went along with the notion for a short while, until I noticed that it would be a code violation, and then realized that it was a very real danger to life. I told them no, and they resisted for a bit, but then they looked for another way to power their lights. Since the design went out under my PE seal, any tragedy would have found its way back to haunt me. That of course would be less important than the tragedy happening in the first place.

 
charlie b said:
I have heard that type of cord called a "widow maker." But I will admit I actually considered allowing such a thing on a project once (long, long ago). It was a theater remodel. The person who handled lighting wanted two nearby enclosures to have a series of jacks into which a cord can be plugged. The cords would be double-male, and would bring power from one enclosure (the power source) to the jacks in the other enclosure that would give power to whichever lights they needed to use for the next show. I went along with the notion for a short while, until I noticed that it would be a code violation, and then realized that it was a very real danger to life. I told them no, and they resisted for a bit, but then they looked for another way to power their lights. Since the design went out under my PE seal, any tragedy would have found its way back to haunt me. That of course would be less important than the tragedy happening in the first place.
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A couple decades ago I was the "head gaffer" for a community theater. They were doing a renovation including lighting, and I had a similar design need. My solution was an 8x8 trough with pigtails dangling down, each long enough to reach any outlet on any of the power packs. Easy-peasy, and no hot ends to worry about.
 
kwired said:
... My point is even an electrical professional that is supposed to know better can still make a mistake when cheating things like this. ...
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That's why it's important to configure the total system to prevent hazards. A male plug is never hot when it's disconnected; a female receptacle is finger safe; a transfer switch & male inlet make it easy to hook up a generator the right way and impossible to connect the generator to the utility.
 
many years ago, a HD near me never gave out any how-to advice and they did not sell some things that were not compliant with local building code restrictions. good for HD i guess, but ignorant folks just started doing very bad things. later on i recall the electrical dept had a retired electrician working the electrical dept, so he did give out some very good info when someone wanted to run a dryer using 12/3.

my view, if you sell stuff that is kinda tricky when a homeowner is doing DIY, the seller should be competent in the stuff they sell. HD is mostly building products, the folks working the stores should be somewhat educated in the locale they work in.
 
FionaZuppa said:
many years ago, a HD near me never gave out any how-to advice and they did not sell some things that were not compliant with local building code restrictions. good for HD i guess, but ignorant folks just started doing very bad things. later on i recall the electrical dept had a retired electrician working the electrical dept, so he did give out some very good info when someone wanted to run a dryer using 12/3.

my view, if you sell stuff that is kinda tricky when a homeowner is doing DIY, the seller should be competent in the stuff they sell. HD is mostly building products, the folks working the stores should be somewhat educated in the locale they work in.
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What assurance does one have that the sales people even know much about what is correct? In the case where the retired electrician works in HD electrical dept, you do have some experience behind him, but what if he was trained by a "hack" in the first place?

I have had misinformation on how to install or select items even at the electrical supply house, where many of those that work there don't seem to have all that much electrical background. The ones that worked there the longest just have learned more over the time they have been there.
 
I don't recall ever hearing of a successful lawsuit involving such advice.

It does not mean there has never been one, or that a potential lawsuit was settled without a trial.

The thing is that for the most part, the chances of actual economic harm happening becasue of such bad advice is pretty low. The chance of the level of economic harm being high enough that it is worth suing over is even lower.
 
kwired said:
What assurance does one have that the sales people even know much about what is correct? In the case where the retired electrician works in HD electrical dept, you do have some experience behind him, but what if he was trained by a "hack" in the first place?

I have had misinformation on how to install or select items even at the electrical supply house, where many of those that work there don't seem to have all that much electrical background. The ones that worked there the longest just have learned more over the time they have been there.
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no assurance at all, but the other guy(s) in electrical would divert the more technical/compliance questions over to "Bob" because bob used to be an electrician and knew the local laws.

i dont even trust some certified/licensed folks in what they do, especially HVAC folks. of the few HVAC i had to talk to, all speaking out a hole that typically does not talk, etc.

so what is "Bob" at HD supposed to do, give advice and then tell folks "better go talk to a licensed electrician about that"? Bob is licensed, he just doesnt work any more.

its like the numb who directs the car backing up "you got it, you got it, ....... BANG, oh sorry".

but then again, the have-zero-advice isnt a bad policy. if Joe Blo wants to buy some 12/3 for his "dryer install", then get the guy a roll of 12/3 and help him to the checkout lane. a part of his house burns down later, then so be it, at least Joe Blo now knows never to that again. ;)
 
The supply house I go to isn't allowed to give advice. I mean really, you are the electrician, what does it say about you if you have to ask the counter guy what size wire to use?

-Hal
 
Found this:

Under a legal doctrine sometimes referred to as "respondeat superior" (Latin for "Let the superior answer"), an employer is legally responsible for the actions of its employees. However, this rule applies only if the employee is acting within the course and scope of employment.
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FionaZuppa said:
many years ago, a HD near me never gave out any how-to advice and they did not sell some things that were not compliant with local building code restrictions. good for HD i guess, but ignorant folks just started doing very bad things. later on i recall the electrical dept had a retired electrician working the electrical dept, so he did give out some very good info when someone wanted to run a dryer using 12/3.

my view, if you sell stuff that is kinda tricky when a homeowner is doing DIY, the seller should be competent in the stuff they sell. HD is mostly building products, the folks working the stores should be somewhat educated in the locale they work in.
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Would not surprise me if the store had some type of policy in place. I've over heard my fare share of horrors at HD years back with young guys straight out of high school giving away how to advice that was blatantly incorrect.

Kudos on getting getting someone experienced. Stores that have people like that are doing everyone a favor, trust me :happyyes::happyyes:

As for me have not been in an HD for several years now, so I hope its changed.
 
gadfly56 said:
My solution was an 8x8 trough with pigtails dangling down, each long enough to reach any outlet on any of the power packs. Easy-peasy, and no hot ends to worry about.
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I had one of those, too. Learned a lot because the electricians who wired it ran a single white and two separate black wires to each split duplex but didn't try to match any of the white wires with the related black wires in the gutter; that was my intro to MWBC's (at about age 14). The theater tech and I spent half a day straightening that all out.
 
zbang said:
I had one of those, too. Learned a lot because the electricians who wired it ran a single white and two separate black wires to each split duplex but didn't try to match any of the white wires with the related black wires in the gutter; that was my intro to MWBC's (at about age 14). The theater tech and I spent half a day straightening that all out.
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The electricians pulled all the circuits, about 60 or so as I recall, but a hot, neutral, and ground for each. I had to identify each circuit and label and make up the 3-pin stage connector pigtails. I wound up misidentifying only two of them, but that's what electrical tape is for.
 
I have had an opposite experience, where a young and eager HD employee recognized me and wanted to know more than what he currently knew, and was tired of not having answers to simple questions. I explained the difference of wire types, what the letters meant (his questions). I then referred him to a book that HD sells called “wiring simplified” as a reference that would help him understand his dept and the offerings they provide. He was grateful.

I’ve also listened quietly while someone was given complete nonsense advice on something way over their head, and once the Employee left said “you need an electrical professional” and left it at that.
 
This thread is 2 years old so I closed it. Feel free to start another thread. Old threads were supposed to be closed after a year but for some reason some did not automatically close when the forum software was changed.
 
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