harmonics in transformers

Status
Not open for further replies.

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Anyone have an idea of the percentage of harmonics that would be seen on the primary side of a transformer that are caused from loads on the secondary. I dont need an exact answer, just a ballpark figure.

Bascially we have a customer that we believe has a harmonic problem causing overheating in thier transformer, the utillity has monitered the primary and claims there are no problems (Of course) on the primary. So could there be a harminic problem in the plant and not be evident on the primary, or is the utillity getting (or providing) poor data?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I'm unsure, but I an wondering, if the neutral is derived on the secondary side of the transformer why would there be any harmonics on the primary side?
 

charlie tuna

Senior Member
Location
Florida
i agree with infinity ----- consider the neutral load on the primary which is common to the secondary. harmonics effecting the secondary are created on the secondary..............
 

jtester

Senior Member
Location
Las Cruces N.M.
A delta-wye transformer will block any triplen,(multiple of 3), harmonics. They won't flow into the primary system, they circulate in the high side delta.

Jim T
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
jtester,

It is a wye-wye transformer. 2500 kVA 24.94/14.4 kVa to 480/277V. They are getting excessive gasing and overheating problems at about 70% load, the unit has been replaced 3 times in 4 years.

We suspect a PQ problem but the customer is satified with the PoCo's PQ study that they did on the primary.
 

msb10

Member
Location
Ohio
There are lots of reasons why harmonic problems could be affecting your transformer without being troublesome on the primary side of the service transformer.

Have you seen the utilities' study? Did they actually measure harmonic currents, or only voltage distortion? Where did they make their measurements? And when they say that everything is OK, what are they comparing to (IEEE 519?) If they could pass on whatever measurements they took, it might help you.

Unfortunately, utilities seem to be a little gun-shy when PQ problems are mentioned, and they may be more interested in excusing themselves than in helping solve the problem. At any rate, I don't think you can rule out harmonic loading on the transformer as a potential explanation for what you've been seeing.

You mentioned that the transformer is loaded to 70%. What type of building is this? Looking at the IEEE Emerald book, they recommend derating the transformer to 70% where switched-mode power supplies make up 30% of the load.

Good luck!

Matt
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
I have not seen the studies, and they wont let me see them or put my own monitors on, I think they either are hiding something or do not know what they are doing.

Thansk for the tip on the emerald book, but I do not have a copy. Could you post that paragraph with the article number?
 

msb10

Member
Location
Ohio
It's actually a graph. I don't know anything about your loads, and this figure appears to apply only to single phase power supplies, so I don't know if it applies to you. I don't know of a method for derating ordinary (non-k-rated) transformers for other load types (eg, for use with VFD's)

At any rate, in the 1999 printing of IEEE 1000 (the Emerald Book), the figure is on page 292. It's copyrighted, so I can't post it, but I see that Fluke publishes a similar figure in their application note "Common power quality factors affecting transformers". Drop me a pm if you can't find it on www.fluke.com/library

Hope this helps.

Matt

edited by moderator to fix link
 

subtech

Member
Location
USA
The current waveform that is distorted and laden with harmonics isn't just on the load side of the tx. It is present on the source side as well. Its much easier to record and measure on the secondary side because we have a plethora of really good instruments to measure with nowadays.(Fluke comes to mind here)
If you can't get access to the secondary side of the transformer, you are just about sunk. Unless you have some really specialized equipt. and some really good people trained in high voltage work, I'd leave the high voltage side alone. I doesn't make any sense to me why a customer would not allow you access to the secondary side of the transfomer if they are experiencing problems.
Where I work we have a large industrial customer with the same problem. They burn up 1500KVA and 2500 KVA transformers regularly. They don't have any electrical employees and they are NOT willing to listen to our explanation that they are creating their own problems. The effect they have on our 13KV feeder is profound. The substation that feeds this customer is over a mile away and the harmonic content they project out onto the feeder rattles the blocking in a dry 37.5 KVA station power transformer back at our substation! We are currently in a situation with them that I'm not at liberty to discuss.
It seems to me that your efforts may be best directed at getting access to the secondary side of the transformer. Make sure you have proper test equipment at hand in case they finally agree to allow access. You might get only one chance. One thing I wouldn't do is provide a steady stream of replacement transformers. If you are having to eat the tx replacement costs, I'd go the legal route and do what you can to get access to test the load and PQ on the secondaries. If the customer expects you to replace the transformers, you are entitled to know why they are failing.

Lastly, I'd push the PoCo for any information they collected. The fact that they are not willing to work with you tells me a couple of things.
They don't know what the hell they are doing and they don't know for sure if the problem is theirs, so they are playing CYA.
If they had people on board who REALLY understood PQ, it would be likely that they would tout this and in an effort to be a "friend and partner" to the customer, they would be johnny on the spot to help. People who don't know what the hell they are doing tend to hide and do their best to avoid any situation where they may wind up looking like dumbs*#ts. If you don't know what you are doing, it's easy to wind up looking like a dumbs*#t. You'll probably see Hell freeze over too before anyone at the PoCo admits that they don't know beans about hamonics.
2. The PoCo you are dealing with is full of what I call "Ostriches". I have them where I work too.
Any time there is a problem or danger, an ostrich will stick their head in the sand and just stand there hoping that the problem will just go away. I see this foolishness almost every day.
God forbid that someone may actually take the time to set down, read, and learn something about harmonics! Why, that would just take too much effort!

Albert Einstein said he tried to not let his education get in the way of his learning.
In the same vein, just because the power company is in the business of electrical power, don't expect them to know much about it!
(\\..Rant mode off....//)
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
I agree the PoCo is either clueless or is CYA. We use Fluke RPM meters and our guys are NETA certified techs, we know what we are doing, but thanks for the concern. I think we are stuck at this point until we are allowed to conduct our own power monitoring.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top