Harness and using a portable ladder ?

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Davebones

Senior Member
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North Of Tampa Fl
Safety is now saying we need to use a harness any time we are on a ladder ( Portable Ladder ) over 4 ft . I understand OHSA does not require using a harness for portable ladders . This is a manufacturing plant where we have office areas with 10 ft ceiling's. There is different pieces of equipment that we access using a 6,8, or 10 ft portable "A" frame type ladder standing on the ladder while doing the work . This is out in the manufacturing floor with no drop ceiling and the bar joists above are roughly 18 ft high . My question is . Are other manufacturing type plants requiring the use of harness's while on a portable ladder ?
 
I am not a huge fan of people working off ladders high enough where if they fall they could fall on someone and hurt them.

I think they should have a safety harness so if they fall off the ladder they won't come crashing down on someone below them.
 
How/where do the safety people say you have to tie-off the harness? How do you get there without needing a harness :D? (Or do you just wear it without tieing it off?)

I pretty much always toss inane safety rules back at 'em and ask just how we're supposed to safely comply. ("Lessee, 6' ladder requires a harness... with a 6' lanyard... remind me again what this protects?")

For an 18' ceiling, I could see requiring a lift, but then scissor lifts often don't require a harness.
 
zbang said:
How/where do the safety people say you have to tie-off the harness? How do you get there without needing a harness :D? (Or do you just wear it without tieing it off?)

I pretty much always toss inane safety rules back at 'em and ask just how we're supposed to safely comply. ("Lessee, 6' ladder requires a harness... with a 6' lanyard... remind me again what this protects?")

For an 18' ceiling, I could see requiring a lift, but then scissor lifts often don't require a harness.
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You can't just tie off to anything either. It has to be a rated anchorage. If you intend to loop the lanyard around something and tie it back on itself, the "something" you loop it around has to be a rated anchorage and the lanyard has to be tie back rated. Most aren't.
 
It is not just the ladder, but a lot of the safety rules in general. Arc Flash irks me. Many people on these forums won't be happy until you suit up to plug in a toaster. No wonder jobs are off shored, who wants to put up with safety people outlawing work.
 
Dan Kissel said:
Arc Flash irks me. Many people on these forums won't be happy until you suit up to plug in a toaster. No wonder jobs are off shored, who wants to put up with safety people outlawing work.
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I think at least some of that is job insurance, but really do you want to get an arc blast in the face w/o appropriate PPE?

I think some of the PPE requirements for people who are working on stuff where the incident energy is very low are a bit overdone, but for the most part the most annoying PPE requirement is to wear gloves when working around live parts. It is so difficult to do work with the damn gloves on for debugging PLC cabinets that virtually no one wears them, even though there is 480V and/or 120V in most PLC cabinets.
 
Dan Kissel said:
It is not just the ladder, but a lot of the safety rules in general. Arc Flash irks me. Many people on these forums won't be happy until you suit up to plug in a toaster. No wonder jobs are off shored, who wants to put up with safety people outlawing work.
Click to expand...

I work with one foreman that has burns all over his arms and legs from an arc flash he had nothing to do with. He spent a lot of time in the burn ward.

He would tell you it sucked and to smarten up.

I worked with a 24 year old, just married kid on the way. He is dead now, killed by burns from an arc flash. He decided to work hot.

10/23/06
Consolidated Electrical Services,

Joshua Raskett, 24, was electrocuted when he came into
contact with an
energized 480 volt three phase circuit while
installing permanent cables for a new elevator.
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http://www.massaflcio.org/sites/massaflcio.org/files/Dying for Work in MA Report 2007.pdf



I went to his wake, pretty sobering.


Now all that said, do I follow every rule? No, I need to do better but I am getting there.

And as far as our jobs being shipped off shore that is just crazy.
 
Not having a issue with safety . Worked large industrial jobs when I was younger and the majority of people that got killed were from falls . I do very much appreciate the emphasis on arc flash nowadays as I've seen some pretty bad stuff arc over the years and I realize that I was very fortunate not to have had a accident as we used to work everything " Hot " when I started out in the trade . I do think it is a excellent idea posting the incident energy on panels to give you a idea of how dangerous they can be . When it comes to ladders I have no problem using a harness depending on the situation and using common sense . I just wondered if other plants were trying to do a one size fits all ? How can can you say wear a harness above 4 ft on a ladder and then take a 8 ft ladder into a room with a drop ceiling and make that work ???
 
AB (InBev) supposedly requires harnesses for working 6'+ on a portable ladder, tho I've no idea how that might be accomplished outside except rigging one to a lift bucket. Next time you go to Busch Gardens and pay $75 a ticket and $20 parking, this is part of the reason why. They have fired maintenance for violating this rule.

Indoor, rig a harness to the trusses with a man/scissor lift first?
 
iwire said:
I work with one foreman that has burns all over his arms and legs from an arc flash he had nothing to do with. He spent a lot of time in the burn ward.

He would tell you it sucked and to smarten up.

I worked with a 24 year old, just married kid on the way. He is dead now, killed by burns from an arc flash. He decided to work hot.


http://www.massaflcio.org/sites/massaflcio.org/files/Dying for Work in MA Report 2007.pdf



I went to his wake, pretty sobering.


Now all that said, do I follow every rule? No, I need to do better but I am getting there.

And as far as our jobs being shipped off shore that is just crazy.
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My boss had a 480V safety switch blow up on him. The only reason it did not blow his head off is because he lost his balance while throwing the switch. We all gained a new appreciation for safety rules and changed our work habits. It's a tiny shop so it was basically one meeting where he said, "Don't ever let me catch you working 480 hot or you're fired."

I don't follow the letter of the law either, i.e I don't wear gloves all the time when I'm trouble shooting but I have no problem telling somebody I need to kill power to work on something.

What I dislike are rules that are so cumbersome and impractical that people loose all respect for their purpose and important rules get ignored. I got to sit down with an gas company safety officer a few weekends ago at a card game and it was a great conversation. He was telling me how they had just got done going through their procedures manual and editing it down and the result was better safety and more compliance.
 
ActionDave said:
My boss had a 480V safety switch blow up on him. The only reason it did not blow his head off is because he lost his balance while throwing the switch. We all gained a new appreciation for safety rules and changed our work habits. It's a tiny shop so it was basically one meeting where he said, "Don't ever let me catch you working 480 hot or you're fired."

I don't follow the letter of the law either, i.e I don't wear gloves all the time when I'm trouble shooting but I have no problem telling somebody I need to kill power to work on something.

What I dislike are rules that are so cumbersome and impractical that people loose all respect for their purpose and important rules get ignored. I got to sit down with an gas company safety officer a few weekends ago at a card game and it was a great conversation. He was telling me how they had just got done going through their procedures manual and editing it down and the result was better safety and more compliance.
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One of the first WWTPs I worked at had a boiler that constantly lost its pilot light. Because we had to reach inside energized eqpt, they gave us a pair of gloves to reset it... rated at I think 17kV (no idea what PPE level they were). They were so bulky that no one used them, we all just reached bare handed in the cabinet with 480V wires and reset the switch. It just was done, no one complained, no one got hurt. Didnt know the danger, didnt know any better. Never had seen an arc flash then. Nowadays, safety would fire the electrician for leaving off that cover and even suggesting untrained personnel reach inside an energized 480V cabinet to reset a switch.
 
zbang said:
How/where do the safety people say you have to tie-off the harness? How do you get there without needing a harness :D? (Or do you just wear it without tieing it off?)
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You tie off to the ladder, so you pull it over on top of you when you fall. Duh! :)


SceneryDriver
 
wtucker said:
Who wants to work for employers who don't care whether they live, die or go home crippled?
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False comparison. Try- Who wants to work with "safety" people who don't care if their regulations are impossible to comply with or do not actually reduce harm?

Going to the original, a harness and anchor for climbing a 6' ladder? Does it actually reduce harm or create more?
 
There are so many sides to this discussion. Back to the OP though. In a situation like you are referring to it should not be difficult to convince the powers that be to buy a small one man lift that you can push around to where you need it. They are footing the bill so you might as well go along to get along.
 
zbang said:
False comparison. Try- Who wants to work with "safety" people who don't care if their regulations are impossible to comply with or do not actually reduce harm?

Going to the original, a harness and anchor for climbing a 6' ladder? Does it actually reduce harm or create more?
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It isn't a false comparison, nor is your concern without merit. If everyone complied with common sense safety issues, and all companies and bosses insisted and encouraged it then there would be no need for safety rules, but then again, if pigs could fly... I have seen both sides. Employers who scoff at safety when it interferes with production. For example, I still don't see roofers tying off when they are working on a one story residence. This is a clear violation of OSHA rules and many people have died falling off these roofs. And employees who are told over and over to comply. As a boss I am adamant about not standing on the top two steps. I have had to suspend two employees in recent years for violating that rule more than once. I know many other bosses who look the other way, but I will tell you that the word gets around that they don't want to get caught by me.
 
Times have changed...but are they better?

Times have changed...but are they better?

I am a retired utility electrician and worked in the power industry for 45 years. Just my personal opinion, of course, but are things any safer now with OSHA regs overshadowing everything we do? Ladder safety should be obvious....don't do anything that might cause you to fall off. But to be on a 6 ft step ladder and really think there's a safe way to "tie off" is kinda ridiculous. Ditto for wearing PPE suitable for voltage testing inside an energized cabinet with minimal working space, poor lighting, possible mitigating hazards such as standing water, etc. and then be required to wear PPE which reduces dexterity, reduces visibility and makes some operations virutally impossibe, such as testing and troubleshooting of delicate control circuits, which must be done while energized. I understand there are exceptions for certain work, such as troubleshooting, but isn't the risk exactly the same if you're troublesooting? Safety is a mindset, not a regulation. If you want to go home at the end of the day, just be careful and keep your mind on the job....naw, too simple! Sorry, but a good rant every now and then is therapeutic for old retired farts like me. But I still have all of my body parts. I know I'm probably out of line, but what else is new....I think some (or most) of the safety rules at many companies boils down to "well, YOU broke the rules" when an injury happens. CYA.
 
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Davebones said:
Not having a issue with safety . Worked large industrial jobs when I was younger and the majority of people that got killed were from falls . I do very much appreciate the emphasis on arc flash nowadays as I've seen some pretty bad stuff arc over the years and I realize that I was very fortunate not to have had a accident as we used to work everything " Hot " when I started out in the trade . I do think it is a excellent idea posting the incident energy on panels to give you a idea of how dangerous they can be . When it comes to ladders I have no problem using a harness depending on the situation and using common sense . I just wondered if other plants were trying to do a one size fits all ? How can can you say wear a harness above 4 ft on a ladder and then take a 8 ft ladder into a room with a drop ceiling and make that work ???
Click to expand...
I think there is a lot of people that have no idea what that incident energy means, by that I mean a number is meaningless if you don't know how much damage can occur at that level.
 
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