Heater Problem in a Church Baptistry

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Little Bill said:
I wish I had of had more time to look at things when I was there. But as I said, this was a "while you are here" type thing and I was ready to leave when this came up.
I didn't think to ask him if the pump was running when they have to reset the heater.
I will see if I can get in touch with him to question him more before I go back as he won't be there when I do the other work. That might make things easier when I go to troubleshoot it.
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My suggestion is to fill the tub and run the pump/heater yourself. We are "trained" to test and observe for troubleshooting, the HO, or pastor in your case is not. Often the terminology we/they use will not mean the same thing to each other. Makes for harder troubleshooting. In the past I've wasted time following the HO report instead of checking myself. Don't remember the specific occurrance, but I remember saying to myself, "I will never do that again, I just wasted 1 1/2 - 2 hrs when I could have been done and on to the next job". Good luck.
 
mjf said:
My suggestion is to fill the tub and run the pump/heater yourself. We are "trained" to test and observe for troubleshooting, the HO, or pastor in your case is not. Often the terminology we/they use will not mean the same thing to each other. Makes for harder troubleshooting. In the past I've wasted time following the HO report instead of checking myself. Don't remember the specific occurrance, but I remember saying to myself, "I will never do that again, I just wasted 1 1/2 - 2 hrs when I could have been done and on to the next job". Good luck.
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Thanks! That's what I had decided to do. I first thought about just opening up the heater box and checking what I could, but as you said, it might delay my troubleshooting.
I guess I could let the tub fill while I'm doing the other work that I have to do.
 
Little Bill said:
Thanks! That's what I had decided to do. I first thought about just opening up the heater box and checking what I could, but as you said, it might delay my troubleshooting.
I guess I could let the tub fill while I'm doing the other work that I have to do.
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First thing I would check based on what has been said so far is to make sure heater is denergized if there is no proof of flow. This can be checked with or without water.
 
Don't forget to offer to install the required handicap lift for the pool while you're there too. Though they are usulally hydorlically (or however you spell it) controlled
 
cowboyjwc said:
Don't forget to offer to install the required handicap lift for the pool while you're there too. Though they are usulally hydorlically (or however you spell it) controlled
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Yeah, since the Feds done away with the portables, they probably would come out cheaper using an handicap accessible lake!:lol:
 
cowboyjwc said:
Don't forget to offer to install the required handicap lift for the pool while you're there too. Though they are usulally hydorlically (or however you spell it) controlled
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For information where is that requirement located? Reason being the last 2 churches I have done we installed wheel chair lifts for access to the choir stage area but there was no mention of a lift for the baptistery.
 
ceb58 said:
For information where is that requirement located? Reason being the last 2 churches I have done we installed wheel chair lifts for access to the choir stage area but there was no mention of a lift for the baptistery.
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ADA, they no longer accept portable means for handicap accessibility to pools and spas, it has to be permanently installed now. You will see a lot of public pools and spas turned into planters because of the cost.
 
UPDATE

UPDATE

kwired said:
First thing I would check based on what has been said so far is to make sure heater is denergized if there is no proof of flow. This can be checked with or without water.
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mjf said:
Excellent point, kwired.

I wasn't even thinking of where to start troubleshooting, just to do one's own investigating as opposed to relying on the customers "observations".
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The part in red above: The pastor told me the light had to be off for it to be on.:happyno:
Just opposite of that. Good thing he is not the one that takes care of it.

Ok, here's an update on the baptistry. Here's the setup, or how I see it anyway.
Heater is powered from a 30A GFCI breaker, then to a 30A disconnect
To a flow switch for the heater than to the control box
Pump is powered from a 120V GFCI receptacle to the control box

The heater will not operate unless there is flow, and I checked that first. NO switch was not closed, but the heater was tripped and had been off for several days.
In the control box there is a thermostat on one side and what I guess is a high limit switch on the other side. At the high limit switch is where the reset button is for the heater.
There's not much auto control over this system other than the thermostat and flow switch. You have to manually fill/drain the tub.

I took the limit switch out of the box and checked it best I could and didn't see anything wrong with it. I was wondering if the springs and pressure plate that trips the limit switch could be going bad and not letting it stay compressed enough to keep the heater from tripping. I ran the thing for a couple of hours after I put it back together and it didn't trip. They tell me that it trips as soon as they turn the breaker on. They reset it and it trips again within a few minutes.
I also told them they that there was no need of having to go downstairs to turn the breakers on/off since they could use the thermostat to control the pump and if the pump's not on the heater won't operate.

Hope I've explained this well enough. If not I'll try to answer any questions you might have.
 
Little Bill said:
The part in red above: The pastor told me the light had to be off for it to be on.:happyno:
Just opposite of that. Good thing he is not the one that takes care of it.

Ok, here's an update on the baptistry. Here's the setup, or how I see it anyway.
Heater is powered from a 30A GFCI breaker, then to a 30A disconnect
To a flow switch for the heater than to the control box
Pump is powered from a 120V GFCI receptacle to the control box

The heater will not operate unless there is flow, and I checked that first. NO switch was not closed, but the heater was tripped and had been off for several days.
In the control box there is a thermostat on one side and what I guess is a high limit switch on the other side. At the high limit switch is where the reset button is for the heater.
There's not much auto control over this system other than the thermostat and flow switch. You have to manually fill/drain the tub.

I took the limit switch out of the box and checked it best I could and didn't see anything wrong with it. I was wondering if the springs and pressure plate that trips the limit switch could be going bad and not letting it stay compressed enough to keep the heater from tripping. I ran the thing for a couple of hours after I put it back together and it didn't trip. They tell me that it trips as soon as they turn the breaker on. They reset it and it trips again within a few minutes.
I also told them they that there was no need of having to go downstairs to turn the breakers on/off since they could use the thermostat to control the pump and if the pump's not on the heater won't operate.

Hope I've explained this well enough. If not I'll try to answer any questions you might have.
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Anyone??
 
Is proof of flow switch a pressure switch?

If it is same thing common on hot tubs it is only $10 item - replace it anyway in case it is intermittent.

I find it hard to believe the high limit would trip immediately if you were to insert it into conditon above the set point it would still take a few seconds to respond.

When they tell you it trips immediately I see it being possible that it was tripped before they attempted to turn it on.

If heater and pump are on separate supply circuits - which I think they are from your description, they could be turning on the heater first, and the flow switch is not locking out the heater for some reason and it is heating before the pump circuit is turned on.

If there is any delay for any reason before pump starts then a stuck flow switch will allow heating before pump starts.
 
kwired said:
Is proof of flow switch a pressure switch?

If it is same thing common on hot tubs it is only $10 item - replace it anyway in case it is intermittent.

I find it hard to believe the high limit would trip immediately if you were to insert it into conditon above the set point it would still take a few seconds to respond.

When they tell you it trips immediately I see it being possible that it was tripped before they attempted to turn it on.

If heater and pump are on separate supply circuits - which I think they are from your description, they could be turning on the heater first, and the flow switch is not locking out the heater for some reason and it is heating before the pump circuit is turned on.

If there is any delay for any reason before pump starts then a stuck flow switch will allow heating before pump starts.
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The cover over the switch says "flow switch". It is a NO micro switch with a long tang/lever. There is a, for lack of a better term, a cam lobe that rises when there is flow and closes the switch. I tried it about 100 times by hand and with flow and it worked without fail everytime.

The thermostat control knob has 5 settings:
off/no heat
freeze protection
low
med
high
The pump is powered through this. You can turn the knob just past med. and it will close and start the pump. After the pump is on it takes a second or two then the heater will come on.
The flow switch only switches one leg of the 240V.

I can only say for sure what happened when I was troubleshooting it, and only guess at what they say happens.
I didn't get it to trip any while I was there. Only thing I can think of is they always keep the thermostat on high and after a while it trips out.
I left it on and told them to watch it and let me know if/when it trips.

I also told them to leave the breakers on and turn the unit on/off by using the thermostat control knob.

BTW, the pump says "swimming pool pump", and the heater says "baptistry heater".
 
Since the control breaks only one leg of the heater, could be a defective heating element that is shorting to ground causing it to heat without flow, if it is a 208 or 240 volt element. I think you said it was on a gfi protected circuit, but the breaker could be defective, would'nt hurt to test it too. Check for current flow in either leg with the thermostat off.
 
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Little Bill said:
The cover over the switch says "flow switch". It is a NO micro switch with a long tang/lever. There is a, for lack of a better term, a cam lobe that rises when there is flow and closes the switch. I tried it about 100 times by hand and with flow and it worked without fail everytime.

The thermostat control knob has 5 settings:
off/no heat
freeze protection
low
med
high
The pump is powered through this. You can turn the knob just past med. and it will close and start the pump. After the pump is on it takes a second or two then the heater will come on.
The flow switch only switches one leg of the 240V.

I can only say for sure what happened when I was troubleshooting it, and only guess at what they say happens.
I didn't get it to trip any while I was there. Only thing I can think of is they always keep the thermostat on high and after a while it trips out.
I left it on and told them to watch it and let me know if/when it trips.

I also told them to leave the breakers on and turn the unit on/off by using the thermostat control knob.

BTW, the pump says "swimming pool pump", and the heater says "baptistry heater".
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Can you test the set point of the high limit by removing unit and immersing it in heated water somehow?

I am guessing the design set point is going to be reasonably higher than max setting of thermostat - therefore there should be be no tripping except when something is malfunctioning.

For example your thermostat probably only can be set to max of 105? F or so but high limit may need at least 125? F before it will trip.
 
Heater problem in church babtestry

Heater problem in church babtestry

If you do not know how it works - then how can you trouble shoot it - lack of knowledge can lead to serious consequences.

However if you are determined to try and fix the problem lets start with some fundamentals.

#1 the water flow is the beginning place to start - Does the unit have a filter - if so it may be dirty and the water flow is to low and the heater high temp is tripping - telling you that the flow rate over the heating elements is to low. Take the filter cartridge out of the unit and put the lid back on - and turn the unit back on - if that fixes the problem - Poor maintenance - I would suggest that you have them remove the filter - Body oils is the biggest culprit - the filter can look clean, but is in fact clogged.

#2 If the water flow is OK - then check to see if the pressure switch and or flow switch is working -A pressure switch on a spa can only tell you that the pump is running - if the filter is plugged up the pressure switch will still let the heater work - meaning that the water flow is not adequate - and the pressure switch does nothing. That is why a flow switch is preferred.

#3 Yes it could be a defective T state, or Hi temp cut out - The T stat may be sticking and is defective - this would not be what I would suspect - if the Hi temp is tripping I would suspect low water flow. So if you have not discovered the problem yet - maybe you should turn it over to a Spa technician - If you don't plan on adding this service to your regular offering then the Spa Technician would be a good thing to recommend. You are dealing with something that could come back and bite you - in more way than $$$$

If you are still determined to tackle the problem, I would suggest getting a service manual for the specific Spa Heater and or heater - it should also give you a step by step problem solving technique to follow.

Sparky of the North
 
johngary said:
If you do not know how it works - then how can you trouble shoot it - lack of knowledge can lead to serious consequences.
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I don't know how it works myself, but have enough confidence I can figure it out. If it is similar to most spa's I have seen I have even more confidence.

Troubleshooting machines of any kind require some mechanical knowledge, on top of electrical knowledge. You need to know why that pressure switch is there to understand what the problem may be. The switch may work but is simply doing its job of locking out something else in the absense of pressure.

I have been called to work on many things I knew little about. I usually already had a working relationship with customer and to call an expert might have meant waiting several days because the nearest people that work on that equipment were over 150 miles away. I do this a lot with commercial cooking equipment, or commercial laundry equipment, or other specialty equipment - especially if it is older and is no longer in warranty. I find mechanical as well as electrical problems on these calls, and yes the first time working on something can take some time just to learn about the equipment.

Had a soft serve ice cream in a place where I knew the owner pretty well. It was a pretty new machine and was missing the locknut that secures one of those general purpose (bat handle style) switches in place. She told me the place she bought it from would charge her $100.00 just to come look at it no matter what was wrong (been a few years ago probably more now) I told her that I would do it for $99.00 then - she knew me well enough to know this was a joke. I probably did not charge her anything just to screw that nut on - might have gotten a free ice cream cone or something, but she has had me back for service and rennovations many times over the years.
 
johngary said:
If you do not know how it works - then how can you trouble shoot it - lack of knowledge can lead to serious consequences.

However if you are determined to try and fix the problem lets start with some fundamentals.

#1 the water flow is the beginning place to start - Does the unit have a filter - if so it may be dirty and the water flow is to low and the heater high temp is tripping - telling you that the flow rate over the heating elements is to low. Take the filter cartridge out of the unit and put the lid back on - and turn the unit back on - if that fixes the problem - Poor maintenance - I would suggest that you have them remove the filter - Body oils is the biggest culprit - the filter can look clean, but is in fact clogged.

#2 If the water flow is OK - then check to see if the pressure switch and or flow switch is working -A pressure switch on a spa can only tell you that the pump is running - if the filter is plugged up the pressure switch will still let the heater work - meaning that the water flow is not adequate - and the pressure switch does nothing. That is why a flow switch is preferred.

#3 Yes it could be a defective T state, or Hi temp cut out - The T stat may be sticking and is defective - this would not be what I would suspect - if the Hi temp is tripping I would suspect low water flow. So if you have not discovered the problem yet - maybe you should turn it over to a Spa technician - If you don't plan on adding this service to your regular offering then the Spa Technician would be a good thing to recommend. You are dealing with something that could come back and bite you - in more way than $$$$

If you are still determined to tackle the problem, I would suggest getting a service manual for the specific Spa Heater and or heater - it should also give you a step by step problem solving technique to follow.

Sparky of the North
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I really appreciate you offering your input and trying to help. But did you read the whole thread?
I did state that I had never worked on a Baptistry before, and I hadn't. But I'm usually pretty good at figuring things out coming from a controls background.
If I think I can't help I will tell a customer. My only statement to them was I would look at it and see if I see anything obvious. I made no claim of success in fixing the problem nor offered any warranty. I don't advertise as a spa or Baptistry tech, but sometimes good customers ask for help in areas I might not be familiar with. I will try and help if I can. If I totally don't know what's going on I will tell them to get an expert.

The switch, as I posted earlier, was a flow switch and not a pressure switch. It was indeed working and doing what it was supposed to do. If there was no flow, the heater wouldn't energize. So that much I was sure of.

I never got it to trip, and they left it on for quite a while and said it didn't trip for them either. I told them if it did it again, we should look into replacing the heater kit, which is the pump, heater, flow switch, and disconnect.
Also, the heater and pump were protected by GFCI. Breaker for the heater, and receptacle for the pump.
 
Kwire is correct about looking for a pressure switck and test it to see if it opens right at any reduction of flow rate, there should be knife valves in the circulation piping that you can use to test the flow cut off but closing one about 1/3 of the way should trip the pressure switch, these switch's are adjustable ( at leas the two I have worked on the rest had regular flow switch's)

Both times the church maintenance worker played with this adjustment trying to get the water to warm up faster (yep exactly what he said) well he unscrews it so far that the regulator spring inside shot out and he just put the cap back on it and never told anyone, the problem was the next time they accidentally fired up the heater without the pump running (both separately switched) it over heated and tripped the high temp, well it took me a few to find that one (the missing spring) I had them order a complete new pressure switch and it came with the instructions on how to set it as I pointed out above, its simple with all valves open and no restrictions in the drain or filters, turn on only the pump, leave the heater breaker off, back off the adjustment nut till the contactor for the heater drops out, then adjust it till it just pulls back in, reduce the flow 1/3rd using the T-handle slide in knife valve and make sure it drops out at this point if it drops out sooner tighten the nut just a little and repeat, then open the valve back up and you should hear the heater contactor drop back in.

If the controls are remote from the valves you might need a helper to tell you when the heater contactor drops in or out.

this is the common type of system used in a few church's around here, the others use regular vane type flow switches and there are no adjustments, but these also use an interlock between the contactor so if the pump contactor is not pulled in the heater contactor wont pull in.

the first thing I would look at is to make sure any and all T-handle flow valves are fully open.

Check to make sure they are correctly wired accordingly to 680, proper GFCI's and bonding is a must to cover your butt.

2008 added the wording "or Immersion" in both definition for Permanently Installed and Storable to let us know that it clearly addresses baptistery's as many tried to say the NEC didn't cover these before this, most of these are installed under a budget and the work done by the church handyman who has no idea what a EPG is much less how to install it, but in your best interest you should check to make sure it has one.
 
A couple points for others to ponder, the high temp limits in these heaters are usually set at 180? F or 160? F, the temperature control for most have the sensing bulb either some where in the tub close to the inlet of the pump or in the piping of the circulation system ahead of the heater, if for what ever reason the temperature control did fail it would not just over heat the water in the heater but all the water in the tub would have to reach the set point of the HTL, I would think this would be very obvious to anyone who tried to enter the tub that the water is extremely hot, simply because of the way they run these tubs it would not have time to cool down before they preform the baptizing because of the volume of water, most wait to turn the tub on about an hour before doing the baptism which is about how long it takes to bring it up to a comfortable temperature of course this will depend upon the KW of the heater.

As for the fact that it has been mention there has been some deaths caused by faulty wired tubs or correctly wired ones that had a bad heater element energized the water waiting for the person to complete a path to ground by touching something grounded, as in the Texas incident which was when the preacher was handed a wired microphone.

I do about 12 church's around here and each one I make sure the Pastor/Father has the understanding to never allow a wired Mic around their tank while in use and why, I tell them to not even let someone standing outside of the tank to touch a person in the tank if they are holding a wired Mic, (most use wireless Mic's here) also I offer to install GFCI breakers on any pump or heaters if they just pay for the materials as some of these churches have helped me when I was not working and I have returned the favor by helping them anytime they need electrical, they understand I have to make a living and can't always come running but I will get to them as time allows, three baptistery's that I looked at didn't have any EPG's and one of them didn't even have the EGC's properly connected to the loads, allot of this work is preformed by volunteers who knew very little to nothing in how to do any wiring, so I cleaned up allot of this type wiring and made it safe, then talked to the pastors and let them know how dangerous it is to allow this type of wiring to be done.

Anytime I can maybe help save a life makes it worth it, life is not always about money.
 
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