Heavy-up opinions

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dearbrummus

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I'm a senior inspector in a large governmental agency. The NEC treats a heavy-up as a new service and my feeling is that when a contractor does a heavy-up he/she should install all new over current devices in the panel. They always install new cable, boxes, water ground clamps and ground rods yet they repeatedly install used breakers on a regular basis. Personally I believe this to be a mistake for a couple of reasons. First, the home owner is paying premium fees for the service and they deserve all new equipment. Secondly is from a liability standpoint. New devices will be covered in the event of a failure of the device and this helps tremendously in litigation. Used devices have unknown history and in the event of failure that result in property damage or physical harm the electrician as well as the inspector will be drawn into the investigation. As an inspector I don't want to sit before a judge and try to explain why I gave approval to the use of used devices that ultimately caused a catastrophe. Please give your thoughts on this subject.
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

I am not familiar with the phrase ?heavy up.? I suspect that this phrase means to perform an upgrade that increases the size of the service (e.g., replaces a 100 amp panel with a 200 amp panel). If so, then I can assert that I always specify new devices, and that I agree with your reasoning. But keep in mind that this would be a design issue, and not a code issue. I don?t know of any code section that would forbid it.
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

Not sure what you mean by "heavy-up" but I'll assume you mean a service upgrade.

I think it's up to the contractor to determine whether any of the old equipment can be reused and if any of the old installation will meet code.

... the home owner is paying premium fees for the service and they deserve all new equipment.

Not sure what you mean there either. How is the HO paying "premium" fees? I don't like to reuse equipment particularly breakers but again, I believe it is up to the contractor. If he is upfront about it with the customer as a means of possibly saving them a few dollars I see nothing wrong. On the other hand if he charges for new and the are not getting everything new then there is a problem.

-Hal
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

Yes, I refer to a service upgrade, we call them heavy-up around here. The average price of a 200 amp service upgrade here is about $1300. The homeowner is never (in my own experience) told that the contractor will use old equipment to save money. I call this "premium fees" and am personally appauled at the practice. You are both correct, there is nothing in the code to substantiate the requirement to use only new equipment. This is an issue with my department and no one in management will make a final decision. I am in the minority out of 15 residential inspectors. I am hoping to use these responses to convince my superiors and make it policy in our department. Thank you for your time and input.
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

That $1,300 is far from premium price now.

Check out this thread

Bob

By the way I know price is not your point but these guys are not getting rich at these prices.

IMO the important thing would be the homeowner should be aware of the recycled equipment.

[ August 09, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

Again, as stated above, it is not a code requirement to update the equipment. And no matter how many on this board do change breakers when changing a service, there is no reason to make any contractors in your area do it.

Again, codes are minimums and the AHJ can go above and beyond a printed code if they feel it is necessary in regards to life/safety issues.

Making a contractor replace OPD's at the time of a "heavy up" could cause more headaches than it's worth. Let alone, possible legal action.

If you visibly check the reused breakers and they look bad, at this time all you can do is suggest a replacement.

Just keep in mind that the installation practices in your city are only as good as the electricians that do them.
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

Like most Sparkies I have a large collection of used breakers, including some rare hard to find ones. However, I very rarely will use one, and then it's when I go on an emergency service call and find a failed breaker and don't have a new one of that type handy and the parts house is closed.
I know it's not a code violation but I do it from a liability standpoint. Also, if you rely on word of mouth advertising do you really want your customer opening up their brand new panel and seeing faded old breakers in there?
How many of us have a pile of old FPE's? I would rather pay $30 or $40 for a new FPE style than risk the liability of using an old one.
Just my .02
Brian
P.S. by the way anyone notice some of the GE breakers look old when they're brand new?
 
Re: Heavy-up opinions

I use seimens panels (very common ) and I cant remember the last time I changed a panel that had late model seimens breakers in it. My point is kinda like why are you getting a service change if your house is relatively new. In my area anyhow I dont run into to many people that need to upgrade thier service cause it s too small. Typically its too old and is usually fuses, or FPE or some other junk.

Maybe they should make new FPE stablock panels so we can reuse those babys on a new panel LOL :D

Yeah GE breakers are kinda faded looking.
[ August 10, 2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: jes25 ]
 
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