help analyze electric bill

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electrofelon

electrofelon

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Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
I think I understand demand charges and demand billing. I also just read the explanation from national grid. Take a look at this bill. I am not following why the demand charges are so high. Where is the "billed demand" of 105 KW coming from? Does something seem wrong?

PVD bill.jpg
 
electrofelon said:
I think I understand demand charges and demand billing. I also just read the explanation from national grid. Take a look at this bill. I am not following why the demand charges are so high. Where is the "billed demand" of 105 KW coming from? Does something seem wrong?

View attachment 19403
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Wow, that's a lot of demand KVA for 1920 KWH of energy. Is this by chance a fairly large new service that was first energized just at the end of the billing cycle? Demand is a cruel beast-once it has been established during the demand window you are stuck with the figure even if you then turn all loads off for the rest of the billing period. I've also seen this with services that run, for example, a single large motor that only runs a few hours a month. These kinds of things can really skew the demand/energy relationship.
I might add that I'm not understanding why the bill says demand as 9.6 KW but the billed demand is 105 KW. Must be something I'm not understanding here.
 
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Stebs said:
Your electric company is a bastard... just did a brief bit of research, and apparently, some month in the last 11 months you had a demand of 210kw. ...
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Do you even have 205 kVA service to this meter, or anything behind it that's capable of consuming 205 kW? It might be a metering or billing error.
 
texie said:
I might add that I'm not understanding why the bill says demand as 9.6 KW but the billed demand is 105 KW. Must be something I'm not understanding here.
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Thats what I referenced the ratchet clause for... doesn't matter what his actual demand was, his minimum demand charge is half of his highest demand charge from the previous 11 months...
 
It appears that the 105kW may have come from a previous month.

From National Grid:
4d94b92c176cae45c1c3776a40bc9f55.jpg



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Ok that explains it. Thanks guys. This is a 1000 amp 120/208 service. As you can see from the kwh usage, there is very little load currently, however they did have some growers in there a year ago so that 210 kw demand is reasonable. Wow, demand is a bitch....
 
electrofelon said:
Ok that explains it. Thanks guys. This is a 1000 amp 120/208 service. As you can see from the kwh usage, there is very little load currently, however they did have some growers in there a year ago so that 210 kw demand is reasonable. Wow, demand is a bitch....
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The final result is a bill of basically $1.00/kW-hr, or about 5-8 times what the average is NOT on the left coast. With bills like that, you can definitely justify a solar install, even without subsidies, just to shave the demand.

However, the whole idea of that demand ratchet is insane. Maybe I could see a 3-, 4- or 6-month running average on the demand but that tariff is nuts!
 
Stebs said:
Thats what I referenced the ratchet clause for... doesn't matter what his actual demand was, his minimum demand charge is half of his highest demand charge from the previous 11 months...
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Yep, I think you are correct. I was not thinking of a ratchet clause but that would explain it.
I know many have a real issue with power rates but I see the business case for justifying demand and time of use rates. After all it cost the POCO to supply demand. For me though, I draw the line at tiered rates which is sweeping the nation that I see as nothing but pure socialism. I see no justification for this from a cost of providing service to the POCO.
 
texie said:
Yep, I think you are correct. I was not thinking of a ratchet clause but that would explain it.
I know many have a real issue with power rates but I see the business case for justifying demand and time of use rates. After all it cost the POCO to supply demand. For me though, I draw the line at tiered rates which is sweeping the nation that I see as nothing but pure socialism. I see no justification for this from a cost of providing service to the POCO.
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I can appreciate that a POCO needs to plan it's demand profile and cover it's costs when you blow the curve, but this is excessive. It should take into account the delta between your base load and your peak. If you are a steady customer, they can build you into the base load plan. Only if you swing wildly should you pay accordingly. Again, the plan in this thread just gouges the customer.
 
gadfly56 said:
I can appreciate that a POCO needs to plan it's demand profile and cover it's costs when you blow the curve, but this is excessive. It should take into account the delta between your base load and your peak. If you are a steady customer, they can build you into the base load plan. Only if you swing wildly should you pay accordingly. Again, the plan in this thread just gouges the customer.
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And apparently they are gouging a new user based on what the previous user did - though they may not have the same kind of operation.
 
GoldDigger said:
That's if you divide the total bill by the actual kWh.
It actually works out to an energy charge just over $.08, misc. delivery charges totaling maybe $.02, and $1000 of load-independent fake demand charge.
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This is how you make renewables economically viable.
 
The service to my farm has a $35 “facility charge”. We rarely use more than 5-10 kWh. Add on the taxes and other BS charges and we’re paying about 8 bucks per kWh.
 
It costs money to build & maintain generation, transmission & distribution, regardless of how much energy they deliver.
Demand charges are one way to recoup those costs.
 
drcampbell said:
It costs money to build & maintain generation, transmission & distribution, regardless of how much energy they deliver.
Demand charges are one way to recoup those costs.
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There's "recoup" and then there's "bend 'em over a barrel".
 
electrofelon said:
I don't know, I think it is tough to use solar to lower demand penalties - at least here in the northeast, maybe a much sunnier place it would help reliably. Here, you will certainly get lucky now and then, but all it takes is 1 15 minute interval and you are screwed.
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Yeah. PV can knock the peak off tiered rates fairly easily (but less so as peak hours are being redefined), but are not consistent enough to reliably reduce peak demand. They can be coordinated with a demand management system to allow higher usage only when the PV is producing sufficient power.
 
electrofelon said:
I don't know, I think it is tough to use solar to lower demand penalties - at least here in the northeast, maybe a much sunnier place it would help reliably. Here, you will certainly get lucky now and then, but all it takes is 1 15 minute interval and you are screwed.
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Anthony Watts, who runs the blog WattsUpWithThat, did an install for this very purpose. He lives in Chico, CA. His POCO may have a different rate structure, but it works for him. If you're really interested you can search his blog. He has a couple of posts on it.
 
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