Help Needed - 240v Outlet

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XStroX

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Charleston, SC
Hi All,

First time poster and badly in need of help. I live in a raised elevation home (drive under with 2 floors above it) and I'm trying to have a 240v outlet installed in the drive under for charging a new Tesla. I had 3 electricians here today to give me quotes/estimates and the 3 left me completely confused. My problem is that the only sub panel / breaker box in my home is on the 3rd floor in the middle of the floor plan. I'm told without tearing up multiple walls and ceilings I have two options:
1. Run new wiring from breaker box up into attic, through attic to corner of home and then down 20 feet of conduit outside home and then another 30 feet of conduit under the drive under to where I need the outlet. Not an easy task at all and I was told due to all the conduit and distance this would be costly.
2. Run a new sub panel off the meter/main/service panel that is outside the drive under a few feet away to inside the drive under. The first two electricians had to call their managers and then told me this was possible and to code but would be a bit costly. They both recommended this Option over Option 2. More material costs but far less labor they said. Also gives me options to expand in the future.

Here is where my problem comes in. The 3rd electrician said Option 2 is definitely not to code and that you can't splice into the wires in meter/main/service panel to run another sub panel. When I asked him why, he got upset and basically left.

I've attached two pictures of my meter/main/service panel. I have a solar system which you can see is spliced in at the top.

Can Option 2 be done per code?

Is here some other option I'm not thinking of?

Thanks!

XStroX

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This is for whichever electrician you feel comfortable with and hire, and not for you! :happysad: Your mention of electricians is the only reason we're answering you, and why the thread hasn't been locked.

Seriously, there is a strongly-enforced rule here that we can not advise any non-professional for liability reasons. Electricity is deadly enough for us trained professionals; too many DIYers get hurt or killed trying to save a buck.

The switch to the left of the meter is supplied in that exact fashion by the two aluminum double lugs. What does it supply, central A/C? What is its maximum capacity, is it fused, if so at what value, and what size wiring is that?

The concern here is that, because of the taps ahead of the main breaker, the line conductors, and the entire service, can be overloaded because there is now more than 200 amps worth of breakers and/or fuses being supplied.

It's possible to replace, or add to that switch with a small sub-panel. You'd need a house load calc, and know the existing and new loads that would be on those taps. The tap wires would likely have to be up-sized.

Remember, not for you. Please show or print this for your electrician. :happyyes:
 
There is no way I myself would think of going near any wires in the pictures. I'm simply trying to verify what the first two electricians told me is correct and that I should be ignoring the 3rd electrician that said adding a sub panel by splicing into the main panel would not be to code. I think you're telling me the first two electricians are correct and this can be done to code.

Follow on question. The first electrician who was by far the most helpful said that he doesn't have to pull a permit to do this but that he could if I wanted him to. He said in his opinion, since they are doing everything to code, it doesn't matter to him, just up to me. Is this a typical offer? I assumed I had to get a permit, especially if something is coming off the main panel like this.

The switch to the left of the meter is coming from the solar installation on my roof. No clue on what size wiring it is as I'd have to ask the guys that installed it. Would that explain why it is spliced in where it is?

Greatly appreciate your help and I'll absolutely be reviewing your responses with whomever I select to make sure we're on the same page.

I can even share a screenshot of the estimate I received if that prevents this thread from being locked.
 
I'm recommending thoroughly exploring tapping at the service, and not running from the interior panel.

It can be done compliantly if done correctly. That includes permitting and inspection.
 
I may be wrong, but it looks like the solar is tapped into the service conductors coming from the meter which then go to the 200A service disconnect which supplies the house distribution panel on the 3rd floor. How is that permitted with no disconnect between the service and those solar taps?

I also don't like that those solar taps are uninsulated and have no protective shield.
 
I'm curious, did the solar install get a permit and an electrical inspection?

BTW, a permit and inspection is required AFAIK. I'd have concerns about the 1st electrician saying you don't need one.

Sounds like a hose on pilings, so ... are you in a flood plain? What is the flood elevation? Is a receptacle even allowed down there?

Maybe a call to the inspection department may help answer some of your questions.

I would insist on a permit.

How'd you get the pictures on the inside of that meter enclosure? Who cut the meter seal?
 
I would not be that difficult or expensive to pull out the conductors on the load side of the main breaker/service disconnect, and mount a new panelboard which would refeed what was pulled out and feed a circuit for the charger. I would likely use panelboard with feed thru lugs due to the 200 amp feed. Or, the electrician could use one of the feeder tap rules to tap the 200A set to feed the charger, In that case I we mount a box or wireway to make the tap, looks too crowded in the meter socket to tap there. Easy Peasy lemon squeezy. I'd have you zippin' and speedin' around in that testa by noon.....
 
growler said:
Once the picture is enlarged and I can see what you are talking about I don't like it much either.
Click to expand...
Not only is there no protective shield in the front for personal protection, but there doesn't appear to be any insulated mount behind the taps. As far as I can tell, they are bare metal all over and just "floating" in the panel, their only insulation being the air gap created by the wires on which they are clamped. And since they are apparently clamped on the service conductors upstream of any OCPD... :eek:hmy::happysad:
 
Jon456 said:
Not only is there no protective shield in the front for personal protection, but there doesn't appear to be any insulated mount behind the taps. As far as I can tell, they are bare metal all over and just "floating" in the panel, their only insulation being the air gap created by the wires on which they are clamped. And since they are apparently clamped on the service conductors upstream of any OCPD... :eek:hmy::happysad:
Click to expand...


I think I would at least be temped to just install a different meter main. Get one with some barrier between meter and main disconnect and room for a few extra breakers. That way you could have access to everything except the meter without cutting a seal.
 
That supply side tap might be legal, insulating the connectors would be nice though. Even if it is not PV or other source, you can have additional service disconnecting means, calculated load can not exceed ampacity of any common supply conductor.

It was mentioned this is away from the lower "drive under", which depending on conditions can make it considered to be a separate structure. If that is the case then supplying another feed to the house creates possible issues with 225.30.
 
oldsparky52 said:
I'm curious, did the solar install get a permit and an electrical inspection?

BTW, a permit and inspection is required AFAIK. I'd have concerns about the 1st electrician saying you don't need one.

Sounds like a hose on pilings, so ... are you in a flood plain? What is the flood elevation? Is a receptacle even allowed down there?

Maybe a call to the inspection department may help answer some of your questions.

I would insist on a permit.

How'd you get the pictures on the inside of that meter enclosure? Who cut the meter seal?
Click to expand...

The solar system installation company absolutely got a permit and electrical inspection. They weren't even able to turn the system on until the county first inspected and then the electrical company came and inspected and actually flipped the switch.

Yes we are in a flood plain. Flood elevation level is about 6 feet above ground level. No idea why but all the outlets in the garage are above the flood level (they are about 7 feet up. For some reason that requirement must not apply to the meters and panels outside as none of those are above 6 feet. The new 240v receptacle would be above the flood level at 7 feet as well.

The first electrician said he couldn't give an accurate quote/estimate without seeing what was going on in the meter/service panel. Assuming he cut the meter seal? I honestly didn't even know what a meter seal was that was until I just googled it. I took the pictures while he had it open explaining to me what I was looking at.
 
kwired said:
It was mentioned this is away from the lower "drive under", which depending on conditions can make it considered to be a separate structure. If that is the case then supplying another feed to the house creates possible issues with 225.30.
Click to expand...

What you're seeing is just mounted on the outside of the drive under "wall". I'll go grab a picture showing everything.
 
Two more pictures showing the entire setup currently. The two boxes on the left were added during the solar installation. Also showing the inside of the drive under where the feed comes in before taking a turn for the ceiling (and eventually, the 3rd floor).

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There is no limit to how many times you can tap the "load side" of that main breaker, as long as you don't exceed the capacity of the breaker with the connected load, some demand factors can be taken into consideration when determining what the connected load is or even loads that never will run simultaneously can disregard the lower level load. (one example is it is not practical and very unlikely to run heating and cooling at same time, at least for conditioning the same space, you might be likely to have heat in one space and cooling at same time in another space).
 
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