Help with the basics

[JP Homes]

I am a civil engineer by day and residential GC by night. Trying to make the transition to full time GC. I?ve grown up around construction all my life & this is what I?ve always wanted to do so I?ve been having a blast so far.

I?m trying to get up to speed on the NEC so that I?ll be able to check my electrical subs. I know that if there?s a problem & we fail inspection then he?ll be responsible to fix it, but I?d like to avoid that hassle if at all possible. I don?t ever expect to become an electrical expert, just looking for some help with the basics. So here are a few of the questions I have so far?

1. If he wires the house based on the 2005 NEC, but our local jurisdiction is still using the 1999 version, is that going to cause me any problems? Newer is better, right?

2. My electrician swears that wire nuts are not allowed when connecting the bare ground wires in the outlet boxes. He says the crimp on devices are required on the bare ground wires ?by code?. I didn?t see this in the NEC anywhere. I have no problem with him using them, other than they are a bit more expensive (I?m supplying materials...but it?s not enough to break the bank). I?m just looking for a little clarification.

3. I?ve asked him to run a separate circuit to each of the GFCI outlets in the master bath (one next to each of the double sinks). I figured this way no one would ever have to worry about tripping a breaker if there are 2 hair dryers, etc. running at the same time. Since the bath fan has to be GFCI protected, he has connected the fan to the load side of one of these outlets. I know my request was probably overkill to begin with, but does this defeat the purpose that I set out to achieve? Will a bath fan & hair dryer be enough to trip the breaker & cause problems? What about if you add a curling iron to that same outlet while the hair dryer & fan are running?

Thanks in advance for your help. Reading through all of these posts has already proven to be helpful.

 

[steve66]

Re: Help with the basics

1) The newer codes usually have more strict requirements. I think it would be very rare that using a newer code would cause a problem.

2) Apparently your electrician likes crimp on devices for grounds. It's not required by code, but since they are cheap, I wouldn't challange him with it. You would probably just ruffle feathers for no reason.

3) A bath fan is a very small load. And like you said, 2 circuits are more than usual. I doubt it will ever trip a breaker.

I wouldn't worry too much about checking the subs. They get paid to know their own area.

Steve

 

[JP Homes]

Re: Help with the basics

Originally posted by steve66:
I wouldn't worry too much about checking the subs. They get paid to know their own area.

Steve

True. I just like to be as well educated as can be in everything that is going into my project.

And at the same time, there are subs out there that get paid as if they knew their stuff but sometimes haven't got a clue. We've all encountered someone in some trade that could fit that description.

I'm satisfied with this particular electrician. Not looking for reason to create conflict, just looking for a second opinion regarding some of his thoughts/practices. This is my first time using him. If I take the time to learn & evaluate his performance, then I'll not have to worry when I use him again in the futue.

Thanks for your input.

 

[ramdiesel3500]

Re: Help with the basics

I chastized my daughter for plugging in her hair dryer and curling iron at the same time. When she asked why I told her she could only use 1920 watts at a time (okay, 2400 watts of non continuous load would have been okay, but I was irritated at the time). So, then, I picked up her hair dryer and showed her the power consumption listing of 1800 Watts. Then I picked up the curling iron ---- WHAT??? 50Watts!!! Boy was my face red! I said, "Never mind!" So if the bath exhaust fan does not have a heater, then you should be okay with all on the same circuit. Fans and curling irons pull very small loads!

 

[charlie b]

Re: Help with the basics

Running separate circuits to the two bathrooms is a good design practice, but not an NEC requirement. However, there is a related NEC requirement of which you should be aware (in case you are not already aware). It's in 210.11(C)(3), and it has to do with the circuit that supplies the receptacle in the bathroom. You have two choices.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can supply receptacles, and only receptacles, in one or more bathrooms, all on the same circuit. But if you do, then that circuit cannot have anything other than bathroom receptacles.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">or
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can supply all the receptacles, fans, lights, smoke detectors, and anything else you want, if they are all in the same bathroom, and you may put them all on the same circuit. But if you do, then that circuit cannot supply anything outside that one bathroom.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here's my suggestion, with regard to working with the electricians. Let it be known that you are interested in establishing good working relationships, and that this will require you to understand somewhat of the rules of the various trades. Therefore, if anyone wishes to tell you, "It can't be done that way," or that "code requires it to be done this way," then it is your expectation that they will show you the relevant code section, and be prepared to explain their position. On the other hand, if anyone wishes to tell you, "I have a better, or cheaper, or faster way," or "I have a way that the customer will appreciate so it is worth the extra money," then you would welcome hearing the news, but that you reserve the right to make the final decision.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Help with the basics

Originally posted by JP Homes:
1. If he wires the house based on the 2005 NEC, but our local jurisdiction is still using the 1999 version, is that going to cause me any problems? Newer is better, right?

Some codes are less restrictive in the 2005. By the same token, if the inspectors are approachable, it should be fairly easy to argue for the newer standard.

Technically, a jetted bathtub installed according to the 2005 NEC should fail under a 1999 NEC inspection, I believe.

2. My electrician swears that wire nuts are not allowed when connecting the bare ground wires in the outlet boxes.

Not true at all.

(I?m supplying materials...but it?s not enough to break the bank).

That's an odd arrangement. Is your electrician licensed?

3. I?ve asked him to run a separate circuit to each of the GFCI outlets in the master bath (one next to each of the double sinks).

Sounds like a decent selling point. Perhaps your electrician could offer even more above-code perks, such as 20A circuits for the outside receptacles, 200A services, subpanels in the unfinished basements, dedicated 20A circuits for all fixed-in-place kitchen appliances, low-voltage networking packages, scene-lighting schemes for the kitchens and other areas, accent lighting, and other items.

Those items might enhance the sale more than a extra bathroom receptacle circuit or two.

 

[Jhr]

Re: Help with the basics

My electrician swears that wire nuts are not allowed when connecting the bare ground wires in the outlet boxes.

Not true, why are there green wire nuts, unless this is a jurisdictional thing.

Since the bath fan has to be GFCI protected

Huh ?

[ February 10, 2006, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Jhr ]

 

[jes25]

Re: Help with the basics

With respect to this unknown electrician who can not defend himself lets look at it from his "side":

-Bath fans have to be GFCI if the listing requires it.

-He probably just prefers the crimps. It is code the grounds have to joined together via crimp, wirenut etc. (Thats news to me the crimps are more)

- Protecting the fan in the manner described is the most reasonable way to do it.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Help with the basics

You hire a sub based on their knowledge and ability to perform the job you want done. Hire good subs and let them do their work.

As a gc it would be more beneficial to keep the job site clean, and accessible.

When you say the job is ready for rough make sure it is actually ready. By this I mean everything is ready not ready but we still have to add a couple of walls and such.

You get the idea.

If you are going to be an overbearing mother in law type gc be prepared to go through a lot of subs.

There is a fine line between good gc and pain in the *** know it all. Based soley on your post I think you might be crossing that line.

[ February 12, 2006, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Help with the basics

Originally posted by georgestolz:

(I?m supplying materials...but it?s not enough to break the bank).

That's an odd arrangement.

Is it?

I better tell many of our customers that.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Help with the basics

Bob, no kidding?

I can see customers not doing too bad getting residential supplies, but I have a hard time envisioning commercial customers having a clue!

I don't think that I would do a very good job ordering your parts!

 

[growler]

Re: Help with the basics

About the crimping of ground wires. It's not in the NEC but may be a local code. Around here if you don't twist and crimp the grounds you don't pass the rough-in. Also they don't allow multi-wire branch circuits on residential and in some areas #14 ga. wire is not allowed ( all #12 ). That's why you hire an electrician, he should know what's going on( what is required to make things go smoothly ). If you give a sub contractor a set of plans or job specs. that call for separate circuits to each GFCI then he will put them there ( I would) but you would end up paying more for the additional home runs. I think that it's bad practice for the GC to furnish anything but fixtures. Most of us use the materials that we like and are comfortable with. GC's buy the cheapest thing they can find. If a GC starts trying to tell me how to do my job thats the last time I do one of his jobs. If he wants something, it goes on the plans or a change order. He gets a copy of license, insurance and bonding information but other than that I'm responsible for the job it's my name on the permit. Hire good people and you will not have to worry about checking behind them.

 

[iwire]

Re: Help with the basics

George it is only a few customers we work for where they supply absolutely all stock. Those customers have large facilities with stock rooms that we work out of.

However many (most all) companies that build multiple retail locations will supply all the big ticket items, such as fire alarm systems, distribution equipment from service gear to the last panels, and many times all the lighting fixtures.

Target for example ships the electric rooms to the jobs by truck and they are installed by crane into the building. All the EC has to do is run the feeders and branch circuits. The panels transformers, contactors, Fire alarm panel and even the PA amplifiers are all preinstalled waiting for field connections.

They take all the good work and product away from the EC.

 

[jimkaki]

Re: Help with the basics

If you have a good electrician leave him alone and let him do his job, fighting over fine points is not productive.
As for material their is nothing worst then have someone that clueless about anything but price purchaseing material for another to install, the only good point for the electrician is the warranty is not his problem.
If your going to be a contractor then start out by being a fair one.

Best Wishes J.Lockard

 

[Shockedby277v]

Re: Help with the basics

As a GC, you may be working with many trades and some of them might be more than one job, past,present and future. On the other hand, the electrician has probably worked with the inspector on numerous jobs and knows exactly what flies and what doesn't. If he is a reputable and licensed electrician, show some trust.

Just my two cents.

 

[JP Homes]

Re: Help with the basics

Wow. I didn?t quite expect this much response. Thanks for all of the helpful advice. For those of you with questions/concerns, I?ll try to address a few.

This particular electrician is a friend of a friend of a....you get the idea. As I mentioned previously I am satisfied with his work. I?m simply trying to educate myself on some of the work that he is doing. He?s doing this work for me on the side (evenings & weekends), also hoping to make a move to creating his own company. We?re just trying to help each other out. It would be difficult for him to front the $$ for the supplies so that is why I?m providing materials. He gave me a list, I went shopping. Not sure what the big issue is there. 12-2 Romex is 12-2 Romex and cost per spool doesn?t vary by more than $5 at most of the suppliers around here so it?s not like I could skimp on materials even if I wanted to. I?m interested in a quality end product, not trying to squeeze every penny that I can get out of this project. I believe quality will pay for itself in the end.

And this is the reason for ?checking? on my subs. I want to ensure a quality product. I suppose ?checking? might not have been the right word to use. I don?t have the time or the desire to constantly look over the shoulder of each of my subs. And I have no interest in creating conflict with any of them. I?m simply seeking to educate myself in some of these areas where I?m less familiar. As the person who is ultimately responsible for the completion of the entire project I want to know and understand as much as I can about what is going into it. I thought this might be a good place to learn, but perhaps I should simply sit back & read rather that try to ask any more questions.

Sounds like a decent selling point. Perhaps your electrician could offer even more above-code perks, such as 20A circuits for the outside receptacles, 200A services, subpanels in the unfinished basements, dedicated 20A circuits for all fixed-in-place kitchen appliances, low-voltage networking packages, scene-lighting schemes for the kitchens and other areas, accent lighting, and other items.

Those items might enhance the sale more than a extra bathroom receptacle circuit or two.

Thanks for the feedback, George. We?ve already incorporated all of those things, with the exception of the scene lighting schemes. We?ve also gone with a 300A service; 150 for the main living area and 150 for the garage and finished basement with plenty of room for future expansion in each panel.

Around here the latest you can work on a residential construction site is 7:00 pm and no to Sundays, unless it is an emergency, how do you find time to run the GC business?

JHR, we?re in a very rural area so there are no such restrictions. Trying to manage this project and keep a full time job is not easy, but fortunately my employer is very flexible, I have plenty of vacation time, and the project is close to home & the office.

You hire a sub based on their knowledge and ability to perform the job you want done. Hire good subs and let them do their work.

As a gc it would be more beneficial to keep the job site clean, and accessible.

When you say the job is ready for rough make sure it is actually ready. By this I mean everything is ready not ready but we still have to add a couple of walls and such.

You get the idea.

If you are going to be an overbearing mother in law type gc be prepared to go through a lot of subs.

There is a fine line between a good gc and a pain in the *** know it all. Based soley on your post I think you might be crossing that line.

Everything was ready for him to go when he showed up. Everything complete that needed to be and no one in his way for him to trip over or work around. My jobsite is very accessible and very organized and clean, but thanks for the suggestion. I don?t believe I?m being overbearing at all. I simply want to understand as much as I can about what is going into my project. It?s sort of like taking my truck to the mechanic; I?m no auto expert so that?s why I hire a mechanic to work on my truck, but at the same time I want to understand as much as I can about the work that I will be paying him to do.

GC?s buy the cheapest thing they can find. If a GC starts trying to tell me how to do my job thats the last time I do one of his jobs. If he wants something, it goes on the plans or a change order.

I think that?s an unfair generalization. I know many custom home builders who are willing to pay extra for quality materials. As mentioned before, he gave me a list and I picked up the materials. I?m not telling anyone how to do anything. If I wanted to go that far I could have just wired the house myself, but we all know how disastrous that would be. I gave him plans, he gave me a price. We walked through the project before he started to make sure we were on the same page. He gets paid for any changes or additions that I make to the original plan.

If you have a good electrician leave him alone and let him do his job, fighting over fine points is not productive.
As for material there is nothing worst then having someone that clueless about anything but price purchaseing material for another to install, the only good point for the electrician is the warranty is not his problem.
If your going to be a contractor then start out by being a fair one.

I already addressed the material purchasing. I bought what he asked for. Should be no issues. And again, not looking to fight with him over anything, just looking to better understand things. I know that many times there are more than one way to do things. I thought that coming here seeking other opinions would give me a better understanding of how things work and how others might do things. I see nothing unfair with anything I?ve done.

Thanks again to those of you who took the time to answer my questions.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Help with the basics

JP Homes,

You have chosen a very good site for your questions. As you can see, you will get direct and too the point answers, some of which you may not want to hear but they are honest answers.

I'm a little curious why you would seek outside answers to question you have about your electrician's workmanship or material choice. Wouldn't it be better to talk with him about this so you can understand where he is coming from?

First, since he will be responsible for fixing code violations, it would seem it is in his best interest to do it right the first time.

Second, I would expect that for the same reason he would know if newer codes are the way to go and will pass inspection the first time.

Third, regarding wirenuts, if you want proof from the code I believe you are entitled and he should not question your motives. After all, you are paying his salary.

Fourth, this one seems like a design preference on your part and you are willing to pay the extra cost even if it isn't necessarily needed. Until you two can agree otherwise, if you choose to go the extra mile then so be it. I think you would be prudent to discuss it with him rationally and perhaps you will find that this electrician is more of a friend than you give him credit for.

Suppose I hire a painter to paint my house and I believe that 6 coats of paint are better than 2. The painter may have evidence that applying more than 2 coats can cause the paint to get too thick and become less durable as a result. So I may learn that more is not always better and in the end, the painter has just saved me hundreds or even thousands of dollars that he could just have taken from me without me being any the wiser.

Bob

 

[triphase]

Re: Help with the basics

Bob, that analogy ie. Painter was excellent. I am going to use that "If You don't mind"

 

[bthielen]

Re: Help with the basics

Thanks,

I don't hold any copy-write. Do what you wish.

Bob

 

[JP Homes]

Re: Help with the basics

I'm a little curious why you would seek outside answers to question you have about your electrician's workmanship or material choice. Wouldn't it be better to talk with him about this so you can understand where he is coming from?

I have talked to him. I have no problems with anything he?s done so far. I just thought I?d look to see what others in the field had to say.

What if this guy were to come in & do one of the nicest looking, cleanest installations I?ve ever seen. But in the process he had bundled all of the home runs together with zip ties, or ran a single circuit for the kitchen outlets, or put the kitchen outlets and lights on the same circuit, etc., etc? If I hadn?t taken the time to read through the code I wouldn?t know the difference. It would simply look to be the cleanest looking install I had ever seen.

Chances are real good that these things would fail inspection & he?d have to fix them later. That would be between him & the inspector to work out. But what?s wrong with the GC knowing these things? If a GC could save a few days by catching something & bringing to the electricians attention before inspection, then why shouldn?t he have that right?

Again, I have no problems with him. He?s done a great job so far & I feel fairly certain that we?ll pass our inspection.

First, since he will be responsible for fixing code violations, it would seem it is in his best interest to do it right the first time.

Absolutely. But then we?ve all encountered someone in some field at one time that should?ve known something but were clueless.

Second, I would expect that for the same reason he would know if newer codes are the way to go and will pass inspection the first time.

True. He did say that we would be fine going with the newer code. Just thought I?d see if anyone else did things that way. Seems to make perfect sense to me.

Third, regarding wirenuts, if you want proof from the code I believe you are entitled and he should not question your motives. After all, you are paying his salary.

I don?t really care whether he uses nuts or crimps. Maybe he has stock in crimp connecters & was trying to convince me to buy them. Or maybe he really does think it?s a code issue. As long as either are acceptable, I don?t care which he uses. I was just curious to see if it really was in the NEC because I couldn?t find it anywhere. It isn?t worth confronting him over, I was just looking to learn something.

Fourth, this one seems like a design preference on your part and you are willing to pay the extra cost even if it isn't necessarily needed. Until you two can agree otherwise, if you choose to go the extra mile then so be it. I think you would be prudent to discuss it with him rationally and perhaps you will find that this electrician is more of a friend than you give him credit for.

Suppose I hire a painter to paint my house and I believe that 6 coats of paint are better than 2. The painter may have evidence that applying more than 2 coats can cause the paint to get too thick and become less durable as a result. So I may learn that more is not always better and in the end, the painter has just saved me hundreds or even thousands of dollars that he could just have taken from me without me being any the wiser.

I understand that bigger/more is not always better and I like your analogy. I would also appreciate a sub that helps me save when more or an upgrade really isn?t necessary. But what if, after agreeing to go with 2 coats of paint, that same painter used a latex (interior) rather than an acrylic (exterior) to paint the outside of your house? If you didn?t know the difference either, then you?d pay him for the work, he?d be on his way, and you?d be in need of a new paint job sooner than you should be.

I see no problems in wanting to be educated/informed of all processes that are involved with the total project. Part of this education involves communicating with that particular sub to get their thoughts & experiences, but how can it be wrong to look for more opinions?