HELP

[mgelinas04]

I've been asked to give a price on renovating a section of an old motel in Massachusetts. I got my price together for the remodel with no problems, but there is an issue with the service that I need some thoughts on. The section of the motel is at the end of the line in a separate building which is attached with the same roof-line. There are 2 rooms and a small apartment that is fed off of an existing 100A panel. In order to update the wiring I'll need to replace the existing panel and feeder wire (both are ancient and will fall apart if I try to re-use them). Here's where I'm stuck: The panel is fed with old #2 SEU from a 100 amp disconnect that is 130 feet away in the main office. The 100A disconnect is bonded with the MDP and everything else in the area of it, however there is no ground traveling to the sub panel. There is a separate water system in the section of the motel that I would be working in which is where the current panel is bonded to. Do I just replace what is there and call it a day? Or do I run #2 SER the 120 feet to the new panel and bond it with the main service equipment? And if I do that do I just bond the water system in the section that is being renovated to the panel? Any information would be greatly appreciated, the owners want a price ASAP. Thanks!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO the ser must be run. I guess alot depends on whether you need to add to this panel or not. If you do anything then you are not in compliance.

 

[kwired]

One can kind of ask, if not bringing things up to current standards, especially a component that is having changes made to it, what is the point of the renovation?

 

[mgelinas04]

The reason for the renovation is both rooms 16&17 are on one circuit.. Receptacles, bath gfi's,
lighting, everything. They want some receptacles added and lights changed (all of the lights are these old square recessed fixtures, they look aweful). Not to mention the wire is that old cloth junk. The owner wants everything to be brought up to code (afci's, bath gfi circuits, etc) and there is absolutely no room in the old 100A panel. The Panel is shot anyway, so even if I wasn't doing the remodel it would still have to be adressed. I'm thinkin I need to run the SER as well, I just didn't know about bonding the water system because it's separate from the other building where the main disconnect is located

 

[kwired]

The reason for the renovation is both rooms 16&17 are on one circuit.. Receptacles, bath gfi's,
lighting, everything. They want some receptacles added and lights changed (all of the lights are these old square recessed fixtures, they look aweful). Not to mention the wire is that old cloth junk. The owner wants everything to be brought up to code (afci's, bath gfi circuits, etc) and there is absolutely no room in the old 100A panel. The Panel is shot anyway, so even if I wasn't doing the remodel it would still have to be adressed. I'm thinkin I need to run the SER as well, I just didn't know about bonding the water system because it's separate from the other building where the main disconnect is located

Separate building needs its own grounding electrode system and water piping or structural steel bonded. You bond them to the equipment grounding conductor and not the neutral, exception being where existing feeder with no equipment ground is permitted, but that exception does not allow for other metallic paths between structures if using the exception, as they would be effectively be parallel to the neutral conductor.

See 250.32.

 

[iwire]

I've been asked to give a price on renovating a section of an old motel in Massachusetts.

Keep in mind that we have rules 3 & 4 in MA.

 

[mgelinas04]

Separate building needs its own grounding electrode system and water piping or structural steel bonded. You bond them to the equipment grounding conductor and not the neutral, exception being where existing feeder with no equipment ground is permitted, but that exception does not allow for other metallic paths between structures if using the exception, as they would be effectively be parallel to the neutral conductor.

See 250.32.

The seperate building is attached with the roofline, and there is a concrete walkway connecting the two sections, would that still be considered a seperate building?

 

[kwired]

The seperate building is attached with the roofline, and there is a concrete walkway connecting the two sections, would that still be considered a seperate building?

Most cases that would not be considered a separate building, what does AHJ say?

 

[mgelinas04]

Most cases that would not be considered a separate building, what does AHJ say?

I havnt check with the AHJ yet, I wanted to get more insight on the situation before I brought it up. Normally I would agree that it's part of the same building, however it has it's own water system (well pump and everything) in that section

 

[kwired]

I havnt check with the AHJ yet, I wanted to get more insight on the situation before I brought it up. Normally I would agree that it's part of the same building, however it has it's own water system (well pump and everything) in that section

I have seen cases where a roof was attached between two structures to effectively make them the same structure for zoning purposes.

Then comes the EI, and says they can no longer have two separate services if they are to be considered one structure. But fire rating between the two structures or sections can make a difference also. It really is more the AHJ discretion than what we can tell you.