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Donald Blake

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Tampa Bay FL
An engineer / Home owner who has built his own house and hired the GC and Electrical subs ect... Has bought the Ideal 65-165 circuit analyzer and has gone to the last receptacle outlet on the general branch circuits and has determined based on a 20 amp 80% load of 16 amps that there is a voltage drop code violation and is holding back payment. These branch circuits only have 7-10 outlets on a 20 amp #12 wire. According to the Ideal tester you can't exceed more than 60 -70 feet before you exceed the 3%. When you exceed 90 feet at the 16 amp test you will exceed a 5% drop. I know that this is only a recommendation and not a mandatory rule in the code. This guy is not interested in what the inspectors say because he knows that he understands more than they do, by the way he is also not paying the GC for something. This electrical contractor is not able to deal with a long court case and this guy is very wealthy and has no problems with sticking it to this electrical contractor.
 
Interesting tester. By the way, it's a 61-165. I had not seen that one yet.

What is the homeowner asking from the EC ? Does he just want to hold money, or have the wiring replaced, or both ? What's the percentage that he's holding ?

If the EC isn't prepared to fight it out, even if that's something to consider, he might stand to lose. He might lose either way if the HO drags in a battery of experts to testify and convinces a judge or arbitrator that the wiring is substandard.
 
The question of whether he can withhold payment for any reason is a matter of how the contract was written. You didn't mention the mechanism by which he hired the GC and the EC. If there is a contract, and if it says you get paid after passing the final, then he has no legal right to withhold payment.

I can't help you with the problem of "handling a long court case." I can say, however, that I calculated that with a 16 amp load, a run of 57 feet would give a 3.0% VD for #12 copper wire, and that a run of 95 feet would give a 5.0% VD. These are not surprising results.

But as you say, there is no code violation here. You are certainly right. But how you can get the guy to pay is more than I can tell you. You seem to be describing a person who enjoys "sticking it to" other people.
 
Gmack said:
SLAP a lien on the property.
Click to expand...

He could. But the threat of a lien sometimes does not carry the sense of threat to people who are familiar with lien law. In most states, you have to bring an action to recover within a stipulated amount of time or the lien can be vacated. Either way, he could be in for a court fight.
 
bdarnell, well I didnt want to give away to much. But your right. Here in Michigan I filed a lien against just this same sort of people on a commercial chain store.

The owner of the property went ballistic. The GC eventually filed/posted a bond for twice the owed amount. Got the owner off the hook.

Two and a half years of arbitration/court that GC spent over three times what he owed in legal fees alone. Then my lawyer took half of the half I finally got which the GC had to pay.

Bottom line is a lien gets the ball rolling. Its cheap. But some states make is easy for a owner to wiggle out from under a lien.

Go for the jugular and hold on. Do not sign a waiver. Fight it out. Your going to take a hit, but you should recover something.

Sorry for the bad news.
 
The home has already passed inspection and he is occupying it at this time. I do believe that the contractor is finishing a large stand-by back up generator system for the house and he is holding this payment. I am sorry that I don't have all the facts on his contract language. I will keep you posted as time permits as to the the situation/outcome. Thank-you for the correction on the Ideal model #. You are right! Maybe I should post his name on the web so others will not be swindled. We'll see.
 
Donald Blake said:
Maybe I should post his name on the web so others will not be swindled. We'll see.
Click to expand...

I understand your frustration, but surely you know this would NOT be the thing to do. You would set yourself up for potential litigation and I am quite confident that the moderators of this forum would remove it post haste if it were posted here.

Let cooler heads prevail.
 
How much is being withheld? That would dictate my course of action. Also, as someone else mentioned, does engineer/ homeowner want voltage drop "problem" rectified, or is he happy to live with it as long he doesn't need to make final payment?
 
If you weren't an engineer, Eric, I would resent that remark. Since you are an engineer, all I can say is that you shouldn't give away our secrets. :wink: :lol:
 
Perhaps he needs roughed up a bit.Nothing major just break an arm or leg.Don't get mad get even.Sounds like he just wants to f-- you out of the money.Take him to court and blast his name as much as you can.
 
If it were me I would take this engineer to court. I would sue for payment , late charges and legal fees and maybe mental anguish. If all the homeowner has is results from a Sure Test. If he had specified larger wire then it would show up in the contract or plans. I don't know of any area where they are forcing residential electricians to run #10 to keep the voltage drop down. Around here most new homes are wired with #14 and you really get some drop after about 100 ft. People hire home inspectors to come out with the "Sure Test" and test the wiring and yes, The county inspectors have told me that they can cause a little trouble. But the contractor gets paid because it's not a violation. The county inspector is not in any trouble because he can't enforce fine print notes.
 
A 5 or 6 percent volt drop will not cause any problems and very few circuits will see that kind of a load.What were the specs ? Did they require a number 12 ? if not then change the breakers to 15 amp for all circuits that permit it.
 
Thanks Charlie,
By the way, great analogy with the Real-liquid/Reactive-foam image.
Next time i'm in the Seattle area, i'll have to look you up and we'll have to try this one out.

Eric :D
 
Some masons used to brick a pane of glass into a chimny to guarantee final payment. If you paid, they'd bust the glass out with a rock, if you didn't, then they waited for the phone to ring and a final payment soon followed to get the chimney working properly.

There must be some similar trick electricians could use to get paid...
 
Two "tricks"
1. Tony Soprano
2. Matlock, atty at law

If what I gather about this guy, I think your friend the EC will have to use the legal system.

I think if I was in that boat, I would ask the HO what does he want. Once that is on the table, let the negotiations begin. As an EC I myself would want my full due.

Good luck!
 
I would expect my full due also.

Once you file the lien, he cannot sell or borrow on the house until the lien goes away. It may take some time, but eventually you will get his attention.

I also agree that you need to ask him what he wants. His answer will guide you as to the best plan of action.
 
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