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jim sutton

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Hello All,

I have a job coming up that is an outside, in-ground, custom made "pool or hot tub". It will have 3 pool pumps, 1 booster pump, 2 air blowers and one underwater light fixture.
According to the definitions in article 680 this could be a "Permanently Installed Swimming, Wading, and Therapeutic Pool" or a "Spa or Hot Tub"

Which one would you guys say it is?

If it is a hot tub I would need GFCI protection for all the equipment per 680-44.
If it is a pool I would only need GFCI protection for the light fixture.

If any of you pool electricians can set me straight, I would appreciate it.
 
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

If it is outside I don't see where it much matters what you call it.
 
Thanks for the reply.
So if it is outdoors you go by Parts I and II, and not by Part IV?

So, GFCI's are not required on the motors?

680.40 says we"shall" comply with Parts I and IV
 
jim sutton said:
According to the definitions in article 680 this could be a "Permanently Installed Swimming, Wading, and Therapeutic Pool" or a "Spa or Hot Tub"
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Look to (NEC-2005) 680.60, and 680.62. This will determine (IMO) whether it's a "hot tub" or a "therapy spa".

Which one would you guys say it is?
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I'd say a hot tub.

If any of you pool electricians can set me straight, I would appreciate it.
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I'm not one, but I did stay at a Holid - oh, forget it, that joke's all used up. :)

Jim Sutton said:
If it is a hot tub I would need GFCI protection for all the equipment per 680-44.
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I agree, based on your reference, and my assumption that it is a hot tub.

Mike, this section plays right into your quoted section, 680.42: it does modify the requirements of Part II. :cool:
NEC-2005 680.44 Protection. Except as otherwise provided in this section, the outlet(s) that supplies a self-contained spa or hot tub, a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly, or a field-assembled spa or hot tub shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
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And strangely, 680.44(C) says you can nix the GFCI requirement if it is a combination pool/spa. That saved me, but I don't understand why a pool+spa and no GFCI is safer than a spa with a GFCI.

It is not very clear to me what the difference is between a pool and an inground self built spa/tub based on NEC definitions. Is there any in-ground non-theraputic pool that doesn't also qualify as a spa or hot tub based on the definition in 680.2? I think they need to include a restriction that tubs are made to be mostly sat in, and a pool is mostly smooth walled instead of having steps/benches (say 50% or more perimeter seating is a tub, less than 50% and its a pool).
 
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Does anyone have experience with the Leviton 8895 "high current" GFCI device?
You have to use it with a listed contactor. I am thinking about protecting the pool panel with one of these. The panel is a Polaris "computer controlled" loadcenter with a 8-16 space capacity. Since I have to use quad breakers I cant use GFCI breakers.

The pool contractor says he has never seen anyone use a GFCI except on light fixtures.

Thanks for the posts.
 
I hardly ever do pool work so I have to get the code out when I do one.
They also put heaters and blowers in full size pools. I wonder if one of those would be considered a hot tub.
 
jim sutton said:
I hardly ever do pool work so I have to get the code out when I do one.
They also put heaters and blowers in full size pools. I wonder if one of those would be considered a hot tub.
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How is this piece of equipment listed? What is the manufacture calling it?
It is my opinion that the only way to install a pool or hot outside is with the dump truck full of dirt coming into the job instead of going away full. This way no GFCI is needed. Heck no water would be needed either.
people want to go swimming let em go to the river like we did as kids.
 
I agree Mike, swimming in the creek is a lot more fun. But watch out for the snakes.

The pool (or hot tub) is built on site, there is no mfg.
 
jim sutton said:
Thanks Bob
Could a moderator have changed it?
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I did not think so and that is why I gave it a try, I can edit the text of your opening post but I did not see a way, or find a way to edit the title.

As far as I know all the moderators have have equal abilities.

Feel free to start a new one with the right name and I can link it to this one.
 
Hot Tub: ... if you go back to the roots of hot tubs they were heated wooden vessels meant to sit in for the purpose of soaking (something the cannibals in the Congo thought of... only the purpose was to relax the guests before dinner...they then drained the water or drank it) Then civilization came along and put a circulationg pump in them to filter the water and we forgot about dinner and we didnt have to drain it everyday and you could move it.

In-ground Spa: ... Permanent.... something with motor/motors intented to drive jets for the purpose of turbulating the water for massage purposes, you dont bathe in it and you dont drain it daily and its not portable.

In ground Pool: ...permanent ... has at least one pump ...intended that you swim in it, and you dont drain it daily...well... Unless you have a leak like the one I worked on last week. (I.E....One lap should take at least 4 to 6 seconds).

If it has water deeper than 42 inches, it is somekind of a pool in this case in-ground permanent. So the light is the only thing requiring gfci.

Otherwise it appears this is a spa (3 pumps) and you need gfci.

Oh and if its a combo spa/pool cut the confusion and comply with 680.44 (C). This to me means if both are utilizing the same pumps and circulating means, plumbing is shared etc.

Just my way of thinking.

Stubbie
 
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Thanks Stubbie

Its a pool and a spa because you can swim in it. Its bigger than the average store bought hot tub.
So it must be a combo pool/spa!

I think it is over 42 in deep too.
 
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