High electric bill because of loose connections?

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steelersman said:
. . . keeping lights on seperate circuits from outlets.
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I usually do that, but not for code reasons. I just think, for example, for a 3-bedroom/one bath kid's level of a house, one 15a lighting circuit (BR's, baths, hall, closets) and one 20a receptacle circuit (BR's and hall) is better than simply splitting the rooms in half on two 15a circuits.

The master bedroom is more likely to get it's own circuits in the kind of house I'm talking about, with greater floor area, more bath and closet space, and these days, more electronics.

I just feel that it provides better performance, and is perceived that way. It's nice when the lights don't dim when you turn on the TV. Most people turn on all of the lights when they vacuum, and that's when the breaker is likely to trip, like it did at my brother's old house (I didn't wire.)
 
OK, fine. I don't want to get into an argument about pigtailing. Or I should say, I would rather start another thread to argue about pigtailing, but on this one I would love it if some of you had more to say about whether or not ones electric bill would get higher because of bad connections.

I am really interested to hear lots of discussion on this question, because I really don't know myself.
 
zinsco said:
OK, fine. I don't want to get into an argument about pigtailing. Or I should say, I would rather start another thread to argue about pigtailing, but on this one I would love it if some of you had more to say about whether or not ones electric bill would get higher because of bad connections.

I am really interested to hear lots of discussion on this question, because I really don't know myself.
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I don't think there will be any difference in your electric bill. Maybe if you had lots of bad connections that were arcing, but even then I doubt it. I would worry more about a fire with a loose and arcing connection than I would the electric bill.
 
zinsco said:
OK, fine. I don't want to get into an argument about pigtailing. Or I should say, I would rather start another thread to argue about pigtailing, but on this one I would love it if some of you had more to say about whether or not ones electric bill would get higher because of bad connections.

I am really interested to hear lots of discussion on this question, because I really don't know myself.
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Basic Ohms law. More resistence equals less current equals less spinning of the meter. Loose connections cause all kinds of problems but increased power bills is not one of them.
 
iaov said:
Basic Ohms law. More resistence equals less current equals less spinning of the meter. Loose connections cause all kinds of problems but increased power bills is not one of them.
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just want to pose this question: if P=I^2 x R, and R increases with a loose connection, then would it then be possible to be using more power, or would the decreased current flow negate that. What say you?
 
I gets squared so a small change means a lot more than a change in R. I think of it like bullet energy. Formula is Velocity squared times mass equals energy. If you want to hit something harder you increase the velocity not the mass. Pardon the pun but you get more Bang for the buck.
 
iaov said:
I gets squared so a small change means a lot more than a change in R. I think of it like bullet energy. Formula is Velocity squared times mass equals energy. If you want to hit something harder you increase the velocity not the mass. Pardon the pun but you get more Bang for the buck.
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I still don't understand your stance or answer to my question.
 
Draw a picture with a voltage source (wich stays the same) and a resistor and do the math. P also = IxE. Less current = less power.
 
The quality of the connection does not increase the power used, or cost, by the load. It increases the heat produced at that connection.
Use Ohms law.
For example your circuit consists of one load with no loose connections and ignoring wire loses, draws 10 amps @ 120v. 12 ohms. 1200 watts. Now insert a loose connection of say .1 ohm for a total of 12.1 ohms.
120/12.1=9.9 Reduced current flow and reduced wattage for the total circuit but now you have 9.9 amps flowing thru a connection that was never meant to dissipate heat.

Do you own math to calculate the wattage at the loose connection.
 
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ptonsparky said:
The quality of the connection does not increase the power used, or cost, by the load. It increases the heat produced at that connection.
Use Ohms law.
For example your circuit consists of one load with no loose connections and ignoring wire loses, draws 10 amps @ 120v. 12 ohms. 1200 watts. Now insert a loose connection of say .1 ohm for a total of 12.1 ohms.
120/12.1=9.9 Reduced current flow and reduced wattage for the total circuit but now you have 9.9 amps flowing thru a connection that was never meant to dissipate heat.

Do you own math to calculate the wattage at the loose connection.
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yes. I don't own math, but I did my own math to calculate wattage at loose connection. 1188 watts. :)
 
steelersman said:
I don't think those cheap outlets are .29 cents anymore. Also if they are so crappy then why are they allowed? I like them and have them in my own home. In fact I replaced all of the nasty ivory outlets with brand spanking new white cheap backstab outlets and every one of them works and looks great! And even if I'm wiring a nice big spread out custom home I would still use the cheapo outlets, unless of course the HO or GC wants to pay me extra to use the expensive ones (I doubt either the HO or GC would ever think "hey I don't want the EC installing those run of the mill cheap UL listed, perfectly legal and safe white outlets, I'm going to request that he use the expensive ones which I'll never know the difference between, but i'll just feel safer and better, because I deserve the very best that life has to offer."). :)
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Been in this business 35 years. 10 years in my own business. I did use them in the past cause that was what I was tought. After years of service calls it soaked into my pea brain that they were junk. If they are so good, how come the wires pull out when I remove the screws and pull on the device to remove it from the box???? My house is only 20 years old. I had to replace all the outlets 4 years ago do to flickering lights and televisions going off because of loose connections at the outlets. Same results with ALM service conductors. Years of service changes, same results. When contractors complained about price and requested cheap devices and alm wire, I took a walk. Never went hungry.
 
I have outlets in my house that I dont even think Ive used to this day. And many of the ones that are being used have a clock radio or lamp plugged into it. So the resi grade outlets are just fine. Now in the kitchen is where I really "splurgged" on the 1.25 commercial grade outlets because these outlets acually get used on an almost daily basis, and for these blade retention is an important factor. The standard leviton outlets are fine to use. If you want to overkill everything thats your perogative. Many times overengeneiring something just cost more money with little return on performance. And for the record I personally dont like backstabbing.
 
Some time ago i read an article in Electrical Contractor magazine, and it had the scientific math, that a simple bad connection 20 amp could(?) cost up to $200. dollars a year in electrical costs. I was suprised and read the article which justified the statment ! What must be considered is not just a poor connection--but the AMOUNT of load that poor connection is carrying and the length of time it remains under this load. ALL heat generated on the load side of the meter is paid for by the customer-reguardless of it's cause. The better the connection, or ability to conduct current, the less chance for heat to be generated. Backstabbing and/or twisting splices is a never ending arguement ! Myself-I twist and and never backstab and believe 15 amp receptacles are fine provided they are not overloaded. And you know the saying about "OPPINIONS" !

Lets forget about 15 amp receptacles and consider a 4000 amp-480 volt bus duct on the line side of a main switchgear feeding a 20 story office building. The top joint of this bus duct was never torqued because it was blocked inside a wall during construction and never tightened by being overlooked. It functioned for 16 years until it failed --during this time the heat generated had caused the concrete block surrounding it to fall apart and turn black. The building told us their electric bill came down $2500.00 a month after we replaced the bus duct !
 
peter d said:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. How does a terminal screw that was properly torqued (or more likely simply tightened) just come loose on its own accord? :-?
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Copper is malleable, ductile and has a positive coefficient of thermal expansion.
So, if a copper conductor gets hotter it expands. If it is in a terminal of fixed dimensions the conductor area can't increase so the expansion takes place along the length. Conversely, on cooling the reduction can be in all three dimensions, area being two of them. Consequently, pressure from the terminal screw is reduced.
As a means of dealing with this, we use Bellville washers* on all all high power connections. That allows expansion and contraction without deformation.
*AKA Spring disk washers.
 
charlietuna said:
Some time ago i read an article in Electrical Contractor magazine, and it had the scientific math, that a simple bad connection 20 amp could(?) cost up to $200. dollars a year in electrical costs. I was suprised and read the article which justified the statment ! What must be considered is not just a poor connection--but the AMOUNT of load that poor connection is carrying and the length of time it remains under this load. ALL heat generated on the load side of the meter is paid for by the customer-reguardless of it's cause. The better the connection, or ability to conduct current, the less chance for heat to be generated. Backstabbing and/or twisting splices is a never ending arguement ! Myself-I twist and and never backstab and believe 15 amp receptacles are fine provided they are not overloaded. And you know the saying about "OPPINIONS" !

Lets forget about 15 amp receptacles and consider a 4000 amp-480 volt bus duct on the line side of a main switchgear feeding a 20 story office building. The top joint of this bus duct was never torqued because it was blocked inside a wall during construction and never tightened by being overlooked. It functioned for 16 years until it failed --during this time the heat generated had caused the concrete block surrounding it to fall apart and turn black. The building told us their electric bill came down $2500.00 a month after we replaced the bus duct !
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I'm not sure what the hell scientific math is but I do understand Ohms law very,very well.If you put a resistor in series with a load (bad connection) and the voltage stays the same, there will be less current in this circuit. Your device in this circuit may not work as it should, you may have heating issues at the bad connection, but you will not be drawing more power from the POCO. Current makes the meter spin.
 
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