High Nuetral Current, no nuetrals connected

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tsigwing

Member
Location
Garland, Tx
Have a Starline busway that currently has multiple tap boxes with L6-30R receptacles attached. L6-30R receptacles have two hots and a ground, no nuetrals. I am getting high neutral currents being shown on the busway meter. We have replaced the meter, no change. Any idea on what's going on?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Have a Starline busway that currently has multiple tap boxes with L6-30R receptacles attached. L6-30R receptacles have two hots and a ground, no nuetrals. I am getting high neutral currents being shown on the busway meter. We have replaced the meter, no change. Any idea on what's going on?

Are the receptacles the only load? maybe the neutral wire goes somewhere else it is actually being used.

what do you mean by "high".
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I have no idea of what is actually going on, but you can create a pretty short list of possibilities.

1) You actually have a connected L-N load

2) You have some sort of L-N fault, possibly high impedance

3) You have L-N capacitive coupling

4) You have a N-G connection somewhere on the busway, and current is flowing on to the neutral via this connection (by induction, by parallel path from other system, etc.)

5) You have a metering problem, possibly with a sensor rather than a meter itself.

-Jon
 

ron

Senior Member
If none of the tap boxes engage the neutral bus conductor, then you are getting bad information. Something is miswired. If there is a bus tap engaged with the neutral bus conductor, then there is a N-G bond somewhere it shouldn't be.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
If any of the loads are feeding things that have electronics of any sort, they likely now have what are called "Switch Mode Power Supplies " (SMPS), which create harmonics. SMPSs will be in PCs, PLCs, monitors, instrumentation, general 24VDC power supplies, electronic ballasts, VFDs, servo amplifiers, DC drives, etc. etc. etc.. Odd order harmonics that the SMPS create will go back into the source and circulate in the neutrals. Even order harmonics cancel each other out, and in 3 phase equipment, odd orders divisible by 3 cancel each other out, leaving only the odd order non-triplen harmonics to circulate. But in single phase circuits that are unbalanced, there is no cancellation of 3rd order harmonics so they are additive too. It can get nasty.

That by the way is one reason why the code changed years ago from allowing the neutral wires being allowed to be one size smaller than the line wires. Neutral conductors were actually over heating inside of walls. When I worked at Boeing years ago and we put a lot of CAD workstations into older buildings that just had draftsmen in them before, all the newly added computer power supplies caused the neutrals to over heat. We could see the routing in the walls by the brown discoloration of the white paint. it also caused a few transformers to melt down... that's what triggered them to investigate and fix the problem. After that, no more CAD stations (or PCs of any kind) were allowed in older buildings until they were rewired.
 

dfmischler

Senior Member
Location
Western NY
Occupation
Facilities Manager
When I worked at Boeing years ago and we put a lot of CAD workstations into older buildings that just had draftsmen in them before, all the newly added computer power supplies caused the neutrals to over heat. We could see the routing in the walls by the brown discoloration of the white paint. it also caused a few transformers to melt down... that's what triggered them to investigate and fix the problem. After that, no more CAD stations (or PCs of any kind) were allowed in older buildings until they were rewired.

Does the power factor correction in more modern SMPS reduce or eliminate the harmonics in question? Or is it still just as bad?
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
If any of the loads are feeding things that have electronics of any sort, they likely now have what are called "Switch Mode Power Supplies " (SMPS), which create harmonics. SMPSs will be in PCs, PLCs, monitors, instrumentation, general 24VDC power supplies, electronic ballasts, VFDs, servo amplifiers, DC drives, etc. etc. etc.. Odd order harmonics that the SMPS create will go back into the source and circulate in the neutrals. Even order harmonics cancel each other out, and in 3 phase equipment, odd orders divisible by 3 cancel each other out, leaving only the odd order non-triplen harmonics to circulate. But in single phase circuits that are unbalanced, there is no cancellation of 3rd order harmonics so they are additive too. It can get nasty.

That by the way is one reason why the code changed years ago from allowing the neutral wires being allowed to be one size smaller than the line wires. Neutral conductors were actually over heating inside of walls. When I worked at Boeing years ago and we put a lot of CAD workstations into older buildings that just had draftsmen in them before, all the newly added computer power supplies caused the neutrals to over heat. We could see the routing in the walls by the brown discoloration of the white paint. it also caused a few transformers to melt down... that's what triggered them to investigate and fix the problem. After that, no more CAD stations (or PCs of any kind) were allowed in older buildings until they were rewired.
Agree those are my thoughts also as higher neutral current than makes sense is usually an indicator of harmonic issues.
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
Have a Starline busway that currently has multiple tap boxes with L6-30R receptacles attached. L6-30R receptacles have two hots and a ground, no nuetrals. I am getting high neutral currents being shown on the busway meter. We have replaced the meter, no change. Any idea on what's going on?
Is neutral current equal to load current? In that case it may be wrong connection of meter sensor.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Third or triplin harmonics as a result of electronic loads are very likely the cause such as those with switching power supplies.
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
Third or triplin harmonics as a result of electronic loads are very likely the cause such as those with switching power supplies.
There is no load neutral conductor in OP case for harmonic current to flow through and so no current in neutral bus also.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
No KNOWN connections
if line 1 = x A , line 2 = 0 and N = x
wouldn't that tell us something?

Go for it, still not seeing how it will help repair a physical problem.

Either the metering is wrong, something is labeled wrong or something is connected wrong. It seems to me some straight forward hands on measurements would be quicker way to find the issue.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Go for it, still not seeing how it will help repair a physical problem.

Either the metering is wrong, something is labeled wrong or something is connected wrong. It seems to me some straight forward hands on measurements would be quicker way to find the issue.

that's all I'm asking for
what are the basic measurements: line i's and N i
line 1 - line 2 = N
could give us a starting point or a direction to start looking

if line 1 = line 2 and N ne 0 wouldn't that tell us something?
 
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