High wattage LED dimmer?

Davidson Electrical

Principle @ Davidson Electrical Services LLC
Location
Tyler, TX
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In need of a high wattage(750 watts) LED dimmer switch ( 3-way compatible). So far the only LED dimmers i have found capable of dimming 750 watts of LED lights are the 0-10 volt dimmers which doesn't help me... any suggestions or is this just impossible? also why (in layman's terms please) are LED dimmers capable of dimming less wattage when dimming LED vs incandescent?

I understand "ELI the ICE man" basics but the math is above my head... any help would be greatly appreciated at this point

Ryan Davidson - Davidson Electrical Services LLC
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
I had the same issue a few months ago. I did not find a solution. I don't really know the answer to the second part of the question but I have a guess that may prove to be wrong. The 0-10v dimming limit is really a function of the amount of current each LED driver will take on the 0-10v side. All the manufactures are slightly different and so the dimmer manufactures take an average and extrapolated that out. I think if you stay under the limit of the 0-10v dimming circuit of the dimmer and of course the power limit of the switch itself then the total wattage you can dim is a function of those limits. Someone may have more knowledge and experience. I did do a lot of reading of manufactures spec sheets to draw my own conclusion, but that's not worth much.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
In need of a high wattage(750 watts) LED dimmer switch ( 3-way compatible). So far the only LED dimmers i have found capable of dimming 750 watts of LED lights are the 0-10 volt dimmers which doesn't help me... any suggestions or is this just impossible? also why (in layman's terms please) are LED dimmers capable of dimming less wattage when dimming LED vs incandescent?

I understand "ELI the ICE man" basics but the math is above my head... any help would be greatly appreciated at this point

Ryan Davidson - Davidson Electrical Services LLC
0-10v dimmers do not pass any current, they send a DC signal to the ballast or driver and the driver actually does the dimming. This is the preferred way to do heavy lighting loads that require dimming because it can be centralized and one dimmer can control virtually unlimited lights.

I'm not aware of any in wall dimmers that can handle 750w of LED load. Some are rated 600 or 1000w for incandescent/halogen but not led.

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DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
You may be able to find a triac module that will accept a 0-10v signal. This would be a DIN rail type module. Maybe try automation direct?

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mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
0-10v dimmers do not pass any current, they send a DC signal to the ballast or driver and the driver actually does the dimming. This is the preferred way to do heavy lighting loads that require dimming because it can be centralized and one dimmer can control virtually unlimited lights.

I'm not aware of any in wall dimmers that can handle 750w of LED load. Some are rated 600 or 1000w for incandescent/halogen but not led.

Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk
How do you pass a signal with no current? Every signal has current. Granted its isolated from the power side but the 0-10v drivers still load the 0-10v side of the dimmer to some extent, ma range
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
How do you pass a signal with no current? Every signal has current. Granted its isolated from the power side but the 0-10v drivers still load the 0-10v side of the dimmer to some extent, ma range
I mean the current of the lighting load does not pass through it. Obviously there's a tiny amount of current for the signal, on the order of a few mA.

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Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Electrician
I just installed some LED tubes, they were 16W. I needed to dim 2 sets of 24. Largest dimmer that was not 0-10 for LED was 450W. These worked great for my purpose but 750W would be too much.
I was told that in-rush on LEDs are the reason the dimmers can't handle as large a load as incandescent.
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
You may be able to find a triac module that will accept a 0-10v signal. This would be a DIN rail type module. Maybe try automation direct?

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These "Power Extenders" can dim up to 450W on 120V loads and 1000W on 277V with a 0-10V control input. Multiple ones could be used for more power. They are reverse phase control and so they should have less inrush current with LEDs than the more common forward phase using SCRs.

https://www.leviton.com/en/products/pe500-d0e

... why (in layman's terms please) are LED dimmers capable of dimming less wattage when dimming LED vs incandescent?

On page 14 and 15 of this document they discuss this issue:

https://www.lutron.com/asia/Education-Training/Documents/Controlling LEDs webinar.pdf
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If it is made then Lutron has it. They may have a power module that you can add to the circuit. Call them I believe they have help 24/7
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I mean the current of the lighting load does not pass through it. Obviously there's a tiny amount of current for the signal, on the order of a few mA.

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And a particular 0-10V control unit will have a limit on how many mA it can put out I would think therefore a limit on how many luminaires it can drive.
 

Davidson Electrical

Principle @ Davidson Electrical Services LLC
Location
Tyler, TX
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Lutron has phase dimming powpaks. Use those with a couple of wireless dimming picos and you will have 3-way dimming. Picos can talk to multiple powpaks simultaneously, so even if you need 2 or 3 powpaks, you can still have them all function as a single zone.

https://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/3691150.pdf
this is the solution that my guy at Elliot's electrical supply came up with.

However, the lights are daisy chained together through an inaccessible portion of the building.
I'm looking at the specs for those pow paks right now but it doesn't show how to use more than one of them in this application. unless they can hooked up in series or something.
i understand that one pico can communicate with all the pow paks in a zone but with the portion of the wiring i have access to, I cannot spit up the lighting into separate sections.

Am i missing something?
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
And a particular 0-10V control unit will have a limit on how many mA it can put out I would think therefore a limit on how many luminaires it can drive.
The drivers in 0-10 volt ballasts and drivers to not sink much current. I would say the limit would be pretty darn high.

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synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Are your LED lights compatible with 277V? There are dimmers that can handle more power at 277V because they're being limited by their current capability and not just power only. Of course you'd need a transformer to get 277V if you don't already have it. Just a thought ...
 
Location
Oklahoma, United States
Occupation
Lighting and Lighting Control Designs
this is the solution that my guy at Elliot's electrical supply came up with.

However, the lights are daisy chained together through an inaccessible portion of the building.
I'm looking at the specs for those pow paks right now but it doesn't show how to use more than one of them in this application. unless they can hooked up in series or something.
i understand that one pico can communicate with all the pow paks in a zone but with the portion of the wiring i have access to, I cannot spit up the lighting into separate sections.

Am i missing something?
No, you're not missing anything. You can have multiple powpaks within a single circuit, but you will need a separate whip to your fixture runs per each powpak, they cannot be wired in series. What is the total load of the run you cannot breakup? If you cannot access the power drop to the run of lights, is there an opportunity to tell the owner that per code those power connections need to be accessible and just expand the scope of work through a change order?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Are your LED lights compatible with 277V? There are dimmers that can handle more power at 277V because they're being limited by their current capability and not just power only. Of course you'd need a transformer to get 277V if you don't already have it. Just a thought ...
Had a guy that just had to use some 400 watt metal halide high bays he bought at an auction several years ago in a machine shed on his farm.

120/240 single phase supply. These lights weren't tapped for multi-volt operation and were 277 volt only. Used buck-boost to get from 240 to 277.

About year or so ago I did replace a few with 120-277 LED high bays, thought they needed more light in work areas near the front, didn't want to spend anything for the back though.
 

WSG

MN elec contractor
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician & Contracor
In need of a high wattage(750 watts) LED dimmer switch ( 3-way compatible). So far the only LED dimmers i have found capable of dimming 750 watts of LED lights are the 0-10 volt dimmers which doesn't help me... any suggestions or is this just impossible? also why (in layman's terms please) are LED dimmers capable of dimming less wattage when dimming LED vs incandescent?

I understand "ELI the ICE man" basics but the math is above my head... any help would be greatly appreciated at this point

Ryan Davidson - Davidson Electrical Services LLC
Sorry for not reading the responses... Probably duplicating other comments.

In my experience, when I have a large lighting load, I pull switch-leg cables/wiring to a common location. I will break up the electrical load to match the rating of dimming modules. The input to these modules can be a single wallbox dimmer.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrical Monke
If it is made then Lutron has it. They may have a power module that you can add to the circuit. Call them I believe they have help 24/7

They do. You run the load to the dimming module, and then dim the module itself with a wired dimmer switch.


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mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Dimmers for use with LED lights have a lower listing wattage compared to its incandescent due to the higher inrush current of LED driver which goes down drastically for the remainder of the waveform. Hence the power savings going LED
 
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