Holding My Cards Close

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magictolight.com said:
I was just paraphrasing. The contract read Payment at 25% and 75% and complete payment when punch list was complete. A little vague indeed, with the exception of final payment.
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If you singed their contract they may have the next five years to legally pay you and they may be able to charge you a penalty for any delay. It really depends on what the contact states. Many will state you don't get paid until they get paid and if you are dumb enough to sign that's what you are obligated to do.

You need to know your legal obligations and their legal obilgations. It's probably worth it to take the contract to a lawyer for advice.

The time to worry about getting paid is before the job even starts. That's when you still have some control.
 
growler said:
If you singed their contract they may have the next five years to legally pay you and they may be able to charge you a penalty for any delay. It really depends on what the contact states. Many will state you don't get paid until they get paid and if you are dumb enough to sign that's what you are obligated to do.

You need to know your legal obligations and their legal obilgations. It's probably worth it to take the contract to a lawyer for advice.

The time to worry about getting paid is before the job even starts. That's when you still have some control.
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I penned in a revision to their contract stating that full payment was due upon completion of the final punch list, dated with the project managers approval. Unfortunately they have not been prompt on any of their paperwork for us so now that we are at the end of the job I wanted to force the issue, and make sure we were covered. Further more, I thought I might even "threaten" taking this to their client (a very large cellular service provider, one that they are trying to impress) and let them know that this GC has not been following through on their paperwork
 
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satcom said:
When he talks to the inspection office, he should notify them that he has not been paid a thing to date and they may be able to help him get paid.
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Maybe some places, here the AHJ could care less if you are paid at all, not their job and shouldn't be. All they care about is whether installation complies with their laws.

magictolight.com said:
Is it conceivable that these companies hold payment just to make more dollars. I figured if a company like this held $100 million in payments for 30 days, invested at 6% interest, they would make an extra $500,000 just off holding guys like me up. Half a million ain't chump change. I'd bet they play every angle for profit, even leaning on the little guy!
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Wealthy people have money because they don't part with it until they have to:happyyes:


97catintenn said:
Yeah, he could be holding the money to earn interest on it. Good call to wait on payment before calling for the final :eek:k
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A good reason to make a smaller amount be final payment in future contracts, then you have less money to fight for, here they can claim your work is not finished until the final inspection has passed. In future make only 5 or 10 percent be payable at the end of project, even state it is not due until final inspection is approved, then if they want to try to hold you up with technicalities you are not sitting on such a large part of the job.
 
magictolight.com said:
I penned in a revision to their contract stating that full payment was due upon completion of the final punch list, dated with the project managers approval.
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OK, have you met this criteria to receive full payment? Have you completed the "final" punch list?

I would think that a final puch list would include any items that could be found at fault on the final inspection. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me. That's some catch that Catch 22.:blink:
 
growler said:
OK, have you met this criteria to receive full payment? Have you completed the "final" punch list?

I would think that a final puch list would include any items that could be found at fault on the final inspection. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me. That's some catch that Catch 22.:blink:
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Ok, but where was his payment at 25% completed?
 
magictolight.com said:
We are 99% complete with a project for a large national retail store builder. We were supposed to collect 25% shortly after starting. We have not seen a penny on this job which is a $12k job for us. I called the project manager at the office Friday and let him know that we would not have a final inspection until I see a check for full payment on the job site. That set this desk jockey off because he knows that he can't get occupancy until I have my final inspection. We have more than held up our end and accommodated their schedule, jumped through all their paperwork hoops, and of course they have haven't paid, been very slow on signing change orders, made us fax our paperwork to them 6 times until we had it in "their" format, and on and on. Is this a good position for us to be in or is there something I may be overlooking, that is holding the "not getting a final until I see a check" card, or should I play my cards a little more loose?
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dunno your contract law there, but here, you have to have filed preliminary
letters of lien before work is done, or you are out of luck with liens.

i had one a while ago that read EXACTLY like what you have going on.
into me for $30k.. two week job that took a month due to the fact that
they didn't have any money to buy material. when you can't put in can
lights 'cause there aren't any ceiling tiles on the job, 'cause the general
is on cash with his suppliers, what do you think your chances of getting
paid are?

i'm not a lawyer, so consider this advice worthy of someone you met
at the will call counter at your wholesale house.

Lein IMMEDIATELY. Tomorrow morning, at ten am, if possible. it's your
only chance of ever getting anything out of this. make SURE a copy of
the lein notice goes up the food chain to the people who cut the check
to the guy who isn't paying you.

my gut instinct is that this guy might pay you down the road, after you
sue him, but otherwise, he won't pay you anything at all.

i did an end run around the general who wasn't paying me, and held up
his progress payment until i got everything except my 10% retention, which
i never expected to see. that showed up eleven months later, when he
was bidding a $250k build out, and the project manager of that build out
refused to accept his bid till he squared with me.

i had a check cut and waiting for me within an hour. the only reason, was
i had a friend at court, which is the only reason i took the job in the first
place. i knew going in i'd never see a dime off that job without that in my
favor.

as far as i know, i was the only one to ever get paid off that job. it's been
over two years now.... if you google the company, their "reviews" read
like this:

"xxxxx is notorious for not paying their subcontractors
(we only found out about this after rushing out to do calls
for them, were never paid, and given the run around by the office).
If you look at other review sites you will see the same stories over
and over again, xxxxx doesn't pay their subcontractors.

We ACTUALLY did get paid! However, this was only after reporting
them to the State Licensing Board, and reporting them to their
Bond Company. Both their State License and Bond were listed
as pending before they sent payment.

If you run into the same problem.... REPORT, REPORT, REPORT
and you will actually see your money within the year, and if all
of the people that write on these online blogs and reviews
reported them to the State Board and to their Bond Company
(Listed on the State Board Website) they would lose their
License permanently and would get what is coming to them :).

Glad that our company got paid for work that was completed,
but COMPLETELY DISGUSTED WITH xxxxx, THEIR OFFICE, AND
MOST OF ALL THEIR OWNER FOR THE COMPLETE AND UTTER
UNPROFESSIONALISM ASSOCIATED WITH THEIR COMPANY."

so, my advice to you...... is get liens filed immediately, and
try to stop progress payments to the nonpaying general, so
that you can possibly get paid out of the remaining funds.

good luck......
 
kwired said:
Maybe some places, here the AHJ could care less if you are paid at all, not their job and shouldn't be. .
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When they require you to wait for final payment, they better be concerned with your payment, and follow up with some action.
 
Fulthrotl said:
dunno your contract law there, but here, you have to have filed preliminary
letters of lien before work is done, or you are out of luck with liens.

i had one a while ago that read EXACTLY like what you have going on.
into me for $30k.. two week job that took a month due to the fact that
they didn't have any money to buy material. when you can't put in can
lights 'cause there aren't any ceiling tiles on the job, 'cause the general
is on cash with his suppliers, what do you think your chances of getting
paid are?

i'm not a lawyer, so consider this advice worthy of someone you met
at the will call counter at your wholesale house.

Lein IMMEDIATELY. Tomorrow morning, at ten am, if possible. it's your
only chance of ever getting anything out of this. make SURE a copy of
the lein notice goes up the food chain to the people who cut the check
to the guy who isn't paying you.

my gut instinct is that this guy might pay you down the road, after you
sue him, but otherwise, he won't pay you anything at all.

i did an end run around the general who wasn't paying me, and held up
his progress payment until i got everything except my 10% retention, which
i never expected to see. that showed up eleven months later, when he
was bidding a $250k build out, and the project manager of that build out
refused to accept his bid till he squared with me.

i had a check cut and waiting for me within an hour. the only reason, was
i had a friend at court, which is the only reason i took the job in the first
place. i knew going in i'd never see a dime off that job without that in my
favor.

as far as i know, i was the only one to ever get paid off that job. it's been
over two years now.... if you google the company, their "reviews" read
like this:

"xxxxx is notorious for not paying their subcontractors
(we only found out about this after rushing out to do calls
for them, were never paid, and given the run around by the office).
If you look at other review sites you will see the same stories over
and over again, xxxxx doesn't pay their subcontractors.

We ACTUALLY did get paid! However, this was only after reporting
them to the State Licensing Board, and reporting them to their
Bond Company. Both their State License and Bond were listed
as pending before they sent payment.

If you run into the same problem.... REPORT, REPORT, REPORT
and you will actually see your money within the year, and if all
of the people that write on these online blogs and reviews
reported them to the State Board and to their Bond Company
(Listed on the State Board Website) they would lose their
License permanently and would get what is coming to them :).

Glad that our company got paid for work that was completed,
but COMPLETELY DISGUSTED WITH xxxxx, THEIR OFFICE, AND
MOST OF ALL THEIR OWNER FOR THE COMPLETE AND UTTER
UNPROFESSIONALISM ASSOCIATED WITH THEIR COMPANY."

so, my advice to you...... is get liens filed immediately, and
try to stop progress payments to the nonpaying general, so
that you can possibly get paid out of the remaining funds.

good luck......
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Good job, great post!
 
satcom said:
He may of needed an intent to lien, on file and agreed to, before the project started, we see a lot of guys all excited about getting a big project, they just follow the fox all the way to the hole.
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i know it differs from state to state, and resi differs from commercial, i'm mainly resi
had one that i have not heard from, so i went down to put a lien on it

i was able to get the intent to lien and the lien at the same time

3 duplexes went to foreclosure making the liens good as toilet paper, but i tried
and it was no where near 12k i had received roughin payment
 
satcom said:
Good job, great post!
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funny part was.... i went on the CSLB website,
and looked up the general after i posted, and
his license is suspended, no workers comp, and
no bond.

so, i guess everyone finally did report him.

the last google review said his license was
suspended, and his court docket was full,
and something about karma...

couldn't of happened to a more deserving fellow.
just a common thief.
 
Liens don't always cover you. I had a $17,500 lien for unpaid materials and it looks like i'm SOL along with just about every other trade. The lender for the project has started proceedings to sell off the units and recoup their money. It's my understanding that they get first cut of the pie, and if the revenue generated from sales is less than the money they're out, then I see nothing...
 
Gac66610 said:
i know it differs from state to state, and resi differs from commercial, i'm mainly resi
had one that i have not heard from, so i went down to put a lien on it

i was able to get the intent to lien and the lien at the same time

3 duplexes went to foreclosure making the liens good as toilet paper, but i tried
and it was no where near 12k i had received roughin payment
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Rampage_Rick said:
Liens don't always cover you. I had a $17,500 lien for unpaid materials and it looks like i'm SOL along with just about every other trade. The lender for the project has started proceedings to sell off the units and recoup their money. It's my understanding that they get first cut of the pie, and if the revenue generated from sales is less than the money they're out, then I see nothing...
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I have had a few owners that still owed me go through bankruptcy. Had liens on some of them. The lien just automatically gets you mentioned in bankruptcy court, does not guarantee any payment at all. You get reports from bankruptcy attorneys and can see where all funds went. Attorneys and lenders usually get whatever is available and nobody else gets anything. Once the property is sold all liens are cancelled and you have no right to try to ask what is due to you.
 
I really love it when someone starts off a relationship telling me how big they are.

First off, they're never nearly as big as they think. Not that it matters; what they're really saying is that they're bigger than you. Unmentioned are the assumptions that you need them more than they need you, and that you exist to cater to their every whim.

Now that I'm in a 'corporate' setting, it thrills me no end to see new supervisors being given the party line: we, the company, set the rules. These eager skulls, now filled with mush, then race out to torment the contractors.

"Upper" management must have had official college courses with this same sort of poppycock; a number of times they've returned bills with statements of what they think they should really pay. $5 million power bill? Just send them $1.25 million and tell them we're even.

(They actually did that - and the PoCo shut them down within the hour!)
 
Gac66610 said:
you could put a lien on the building, not sure of costs, i'm sure they vary
then you can tell them you'll sign a "lien waver" when you receive check

just dont walk away without something .... been there! :thumbsdown:
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Don't know what state you are in, but not only can you, but you must complete the applicable "lien" paperwork for the sate you are in. The final inspection ploy sounds fine, but you need to have your liens in place. In many states this must be done in a set time frame, often 30 or 60 days after the last work was done.
 
magictolight.com said:
for a large national retail store builder.
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I'm still waiting for a check from Burger King from a job done over 20 yrs ago........ think the check is in the mail?


Best of luck..........you'll get it.............just a drag all the extra effort you will have to put to get your deserved money when all they had to do was cut a check........but that's what they do.............$$$ better in they're pocket then yours.



May I please ask all potential bidders..........please ask the potential customer, what happened to your other electrician...............remember boys..your only as good as your last number....and apparently if your not a thorn in they're
ars to get payed.
 
Run, don't walk, to your attorney. I don't love attorneys but a former boss should have gone to one sooner than he did. Tell him whole situation, give him copies of any paperwork, records of phone calls, letters, etc. Everything you have. Rather, push your boss to do it. He has a lot to lose here.

These people have no intention of paying you. They have gone against their word and paid you nothing yet, that won't change. Their promises, boasts of being big, making you rewrite invoices, these are all stalling tactics designed to stall for time and wear you down while you keep working hard on their job. Good deal...for them. They get the gold, you get the shaft. I've seen these tactics on 1 major job and a couple of smaller ones.

You are about to get the shaft in a major way.
 
May I please ask all potential bidders..........please ask the potential customer, what happened to your other electrician
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Haha...do you think they will admit that "we have not paid them"?
What you do is ask for references of EC's that have performed work for you. They will still probably lie.
But try to find out and talk to the EC's directly about this GC. You will get the truth.

Then talk to your local distributors, fire alarm subs (since they work for GC's direct a lot), HVAC subs, etc.
A bad GC reputation proceeds them, as they have a trail across all suppliers and subs.

Unfortunately, you signed a bad, vague contract without doing your due diligence. And you probably missed the pay/when paid clause.
That GC probably can't get paid by the owner because he can't execute the owner's waivers from other suppliers and subs. And you are Division 16 (or 26)...the bottom of the pile.

You holding out for the final may be your only hope. Hiring an attorney for a $12K job is a waste imo.
Good luck!
 
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