kkchampagne
New member
If a home is flooded does wiring that was submerged lose it's UL rating? If so, is this wiring then not to code and does it need to be replaced?
Home Flooded - Rewire?
- Thread starter kkchampagne
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hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
does it need to be replaced?
Absolutely and probablty the building too.
-Hal
does it need to be replaced?
Absolutely and probablty the building too.
-Hal
TOMWELDS
Member
- Location
- Westchester Cty. New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
The BUILDING needs to be replaced?? Kinda dramatic approach. Even with regards to the electrical, in my past experiences, inspectors normally ask to inspect the system thoroughly (in panels, box's , etc) and a megger test. Same as lightning strikes. Test the systems integrity. Replace components that are damaged...recep's, breakers etc.
The BUILDING needs to be replaced?? Kinda dramatic approach. Even with regards to the electrical, in my past experiences, inspectors normally ask to inspect the system thoroughly (in panels, box's , etc) and a megger test. Same as lightning strikes. Test the systems integrity. Replace components that are damaged...recep's, breakers etc.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Just how high was the water ? what type of wiring ? If romex got soaked it will not dry out as it has paper in it.
Just how high was the water ? what type of wiring ? If romex got soaked it will not dry out as it has paper in it.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
The BUILDING needs to be replaced?? Kinda dramatic approach.
It would depend on the construction and the conditions and extent of flooding but in many cases water brings mold. If it's pervasive enough the only way to deal with it is to tear the building down. There could be serious health concerns that should take priority over trying to save the structure.
-Hal
The BUILDING needs to be replaced?? Kinda dramatic approach.
It would depend on the construction and the conditions and extent of flooding but in many cases water brings mold. If it's pervasive enough the only way to deal with it is to tear the building down. There could be serious health concerns that should take priority over trying to save the structure.
-Hal
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Mr. building inspector please stand up since that is who will determine what will be done in this case
Mr. building inspector please stand up since that is who will determine what will be done in this case
TOMWELDS
Member
- Location
- Westchester Cty. New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
It's hypothetical and was in reference to the wiring. In 25 years, ive RARELY have seen the need (or has the inspector) to rewire. This would include: floods, fires, utility primary crossover (13kv) and lightning strikes.Give it a visual and test it's integrity. Device replacement would be an obvious.
[ December 10, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: TOMWELDS ]
It's hypothetical and was in reference to the wiring. In 25 years, ive RARELY have seen the need (or has the inspector) to rewire. This would include: floods, fires, utility primary crossover (13kv) and lightning strikes.Give it a visual and test it's integrity. Device replacement would be an obvious.
[ December 10, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: TOMWELDS ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
"It's hypothetical and was in reference to the wiring. In 25 years, ive RARELY have seen the need (or has the inspector) to rewire. This would include: floods, fires, utility primary crossover (13kv) and lightning strikes.Give it a visual and test it's integrity. Device replacement would be an obvious."
Fires can do damage to wires even if the flame never hits it.Temperature in the attic reaches high enough to bring sap out of the trusses.Do you think romex was intended to be baked for an hour at 300 ? Also there will be water added from fire department.Try this,take a 10 foot piece of romex and put it in a tub of water for a day .Then remove and wait 30 days.Now slice open the jacked and tell me if you think it was unharmed.
"It's hypothetical and was in reference to the wiring. In 25 years, ive RARELY have seen the need (or has the inspector) to rewire. This would include: floods, fires, utility primary crossover (13kv) and lightning strikes.Give it a visual and test it's integrity. Device replacement would be an obvious."
Fires can do damage to wires even if the flame never hits it.Temperature in the attic reaches high enough to bring sap out of the trusses.Do you think romex was intended to be baked for an hour at 300 ? Also there will be water added from fire department.Try this,take a 10 foot piece of romex and put it in a tub of water for a day .Then remove and wait 30 days.Now slice open the jacked and tell me if you think it was unharmed.
TOMWELDS
Member
- Location
- Westchester Cty. New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
It's THHN conductors which have a degree of rating for wet conditions. As for its integrity, an inspector will ask for a megger reading everytime. The megger reading will show the damages from the heat, etc. It's really the AHJ's call.
It's THHN conductors which have a degree of rating for wet conditions. As for its integrity, an inspector will ask for a megger reading everytime. The megger reading will show the damages from the heat, etc. It's really the AHJ's call.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Tom
Here is a document you should take a look at:
http://nema.org/stds/water-damaged.cfm#download
More and more building departments are using this standard as the method to treat this type of situation.
[ December 10, 2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Tom
Here is a document you should take a look at:
http://nema.org/stds/water-damaged.cfm#download
More and more building departments are using this standard as the method to treat this type of situation.
[ December 10, 2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
TOMWELDS
Member
- Location
- Westchester Cty. New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Pierre, i'll download that in a bit. The point im getting at is, what REALLY gets done. What ive been told by the building dept and the inspector. What we say here has no bearing if it's not actually done. Im all for the correct and safe way. Every job, my minds focused on "what can go wrong here". Let's be honest, in all the years each of you have been in this trade, how many times have you been told to do a total rewire for the reasons we've discussed? If you felt it should have been done, im sure you did it..going above and beyond is a must to be an ace mechanic. If it's constantly slipping thru, then there's a need to rectify this with the AHJ. BTW, my point is aimed at the actual "cables" involved. The devices being replaced is a no brainer. In Pierre's area, there's a street in Elmsford that always gets flooded (Babbitt ct), I would like to know if those basements get rewired or for that matter, what actually gets done, the 6X's a year the bsmt's get flooded? If there's an actual protocol, i want to be the first to know (and follow it).
Pierre, i'll download that in a bit. The point im getting at is, what REALLY gets done. What ive been told by the building dept and the inspector. What we say here has no bearing if it's not actually done. Im all for the correct and safe way. Every job, my minds focused on "what can go wrong here". Let's be honest, in all the years each of you have been in this trade, how many times have you been told to do a total rewire for the reasons we've discussed? If you felt it should have been done, im sure you did it..going above and beyond is a must to be an ace mechanic. If it's constantly slipping thru, then there's a need to rectify this with the AHJ. BTW, my point is aimed at the actual "cables" involved. The devices being replaced is a no brainer. In Pierre's area, there's a street in Elmsford that always gets flooded (Babbitt ct), I would like to know if those basements get rewired or for that matter, what actually gets done, the 6X's a year the bsmt's get flooded? If there's an actual protocol, i want to be the first to know (and follow it).
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Tom
you are from the same area as me?? it would seem so. Take a drive on Rt 119 west to Tarrytown. When you get to the Old Tarrytown Hilton, which is now the Double Trees inn, take a good look. The entire building has been closed and there is a fence and job trailers there.
Do you remember that big rain we had this past summer? The basement there was flooded for 2 days. I went in and electrically condemned the building, using the document that I posted as guidelines for the decision. They are in the process of installing all new equipment. I believe they are also going to make a major renovation to the building as they will be closed anyway.
BTW: they were not happy with my ruling, and contested it... notice how the work is proceeding
Tom
you are from the same area as me?? it would seem so. Take a drive on Rt 119 west to Tarrytown. When you get to the Old Tarrytown Hilton, which is now the Double Trees inn, take a good look. The entire building has been closed and there is a fence and job trailers there.
Do you remember that big rain we had this past summer? The basement there was flooded for 2 days. I went in and electrically condemned the building, using the document that I posted as guidelines for the decision. They are in the process of installing all new equipment. I believe they are also going to make a major renovation to the building as they will be closed anyway.
BTW: they were not happy with my ruling, and contested it... notice how the work is proceeding
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Babbitt Ct, isn't that the area that the state is making the building owners raise the buildings up several feet so as to avoid the flooding from damaging the interior of the building? .... actually I think that work was done already??
Babbitt Ct, isn't that the area that the state is making the building owners raise the buildings up several feet so as to avoid the flooding from damaging the interior of the building? .... actually I think that work was done already??
TOMWELDS
Member
- Location
- Westchester Cty. New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
NOW that's getting done on Babbitt ct. But what WAS done?
Not meant in a bad sense, but are you an inspector in the area?
NOW that's getting done on Babbitt ct. But what WAS done?
Not meant in a bad sense, but are you an inspector in the area?
paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
My buddy's house has been flooded several times in the last 50 years. Dumb@$$ lives in the floodplain. Not ever was the wiring replaced. Carpet and 4ft of drywall each time. Seems to be holding up fine. I tend to agree with Tom on this one, it's going overboard to ask them to replace all the wire.
My buddy's house has been flooded several times in the last 50 years. Dumb@$$ lives in the floodplain. Not ever was the wiring replaced. Carpet and 4ft of drywall each time. Seems to be holding up fine. I tend to agree with Tom on this one, it's going overboard to ask them to replace all the wire.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Home Flooded - Rewire?
Paul
I say your friend lives in a "ticking timebomb".
Paul
I say your friend lives in a "ticking timebomb".
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
water damage /UL listing
water damage /UL listing
When wire not listed for use in "wet conditions" gets wet ,it no longer has any listing at all as far as the UL,NEMA,and insurance companies[just to name a few] are concerned.
While it may appear to be in acceptable condition, the reality is this-
the same insurance company that balked at paying for removal of water damaged wiring and equipment in the first place will use it against you if you don't as a way to void their liability for a future problem[fire,electrical accident..,]even if it may have no direct bearing on the later incident.
water damage /UL listing
When wire not listed for use in "wet conditions" gets wet ,it no longer has any listing at all as far as the UL,NEMA,and insurance companies[just to name a few] are concerned.
While it may appear to be in acceptable condition, the reality is this-
the same insurance company that balked at paying for removal of water damaged wiring and equipment in the first place will use it against you if you don't as a way to void their liability for a future problem[fire,electrical accident..,]even if it may have no direct bearing on the later incident.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
mthead said:
I am not even sure where to begin on this one.
The listing can never be "removed" from a listed item. The item can be damaged, and no longer suitable for use, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the listing. It is a separate issue altogether.
It is like those that claim a UL listing is somehow invalidated by replacing a cord or other part. It is just plain not so. You have modified the item, but have done nothing to the listing. The listing applied to the part as it left the factory.
UL or the manufacturer may have some guidelines about what damage a listed item can endure and still be repaired or continue in use, or what modifications are appropriate, but the listing is never really removed.
It is true that deliberately doing something in violation of the manufacturer's instructions, is a violation of the code, but the thing is still listed.
You may think this is splitting hairs, but it is in fact an important distinction.
In most states, insurance companies who insure a home do not have any recourse against the insured for the type of thing you described other than canceling their policy. They are still on the hook for repairing covered damage.
Many insurance companies even offer extended, even lifetime warranties on the repairs they pay for if you use their favored contractors.
I believe there are some minor exceptions to this, generally having to do with fraudulent conduct on the part of the insured.
Last edited:
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Home Flooded-Rewire?
Home Flooded-Rewire?
Home Flooded-Rewire?
mthead said:
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
- Status