Home inspection appliance power issue

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jsmalone1

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southwest Missouri
I do much work for local realtor concerning home inspections. I am currently addressing a home with a dryer receptacle that is wired with older 10/2 with ground copper wire. I have had this issue once in the past and forwarded a letter explaining the issue and it went away. This is the same home inspector by the way. My contention is first, most older homes are in fact wired exactly this way, second, appliance manufacturers are aware of this fact and neither suggest nor require rewiring of the home, and third, this was code compliant when built. What do you all think?
 
For older existing installations this is permitted by the NEC so if were legal at the time of installation there shouldn't be a problem.
 
10/2 SE cable is OK if the circuit originates from the service panel. 10/2 NM has never been permitted.
 
curt swartz said:
10/2 SE cable is OK if the circuit originates from the service panel. 10/2 NM has never been permitted.
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Good point about the SE cable. :cool:

For the OP, here's the NEC exception from section 250.140:

250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers. Framesof electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted
cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes
that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be
connected to the equipment grounding conductor in the
manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch-circuit installations only
where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in
the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges,
wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,
clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of
the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be
connected to the grounded circuit conductor if all the fol-
lowing conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire;
or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-
connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG
copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded
conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-
entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the
service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of
the equipment are bonded to the equipment
Click to expand...
 
jsmalone1 said:
Sorry it is SE cable, dryer and range. Inspector won't budge and neither will I. We'll be rewiring 80% of the homes here.
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JFletcher said:
If the SE comes from the service panel, and the circuit is unmodified, the inspector is wrong. Go over his head, there is no need to rewire.
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I agree. The HI is just there to make a suggestion and ultimately his opinion means little. It is not required to be changed. It's between the buyer and the seller to decide if it will be changed and who will pay for it.
 
curt swartz said:
10/2 SE cable is OK if the circuit originates from the service panel. 10/2 NM has never been permitted.
Click to expand...
:?

10/2 NM was never permitted? Really? I assume you are naming 10/2 NM with ground and 10/2 NMB with ground. I am specifically asking how a clothes dryer branch circuit was wired BEFORE the early 90's end of the standard 3-wire crows foot 30 Amp clothes dryer receptacle only era. Most of the country wired a standard dwelling electric clothes dryer with two-wire NM and never gave a concern to whether the "grounded conductor" was insulated. Extremely few electric clothes dryers had any 120 Volt load component anyhow.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:?

10/2 NM was never permitted? Really? I assume you are naming 10/2 NM with ground and 10/2 NMB with ground. I am specifically asking how a clothes dryer branch circuit was wired BEFORE the early 90's end of the standard 3-wire crows foot 30 Amp clothes dryer receptacle only era. Most of the country wired a standard dwelling electric clothes dryer with two-wire NM and never gave a concern to whether the "grounded conductor" was insulated. Extremely few electric clothes dryers had any 120 Volt load component anyhow.
Click to expand...

The SE cable requirement first appears in the 1968 NEC. 1965 and prior it states "3 wire branch circuits".
 
It's really sad as this particular home is at the lower end and neither buyer or seller are really able to pay for this. But for me it's also pretty simple, it's allowed and as I see it the appliance manufacturers have addressed this, studied and experimented with this. LG contends the possible current was never even at threshold levels in tests, which is, I assume, why it is not an issue. And for me, I am semi-retired and managed large projects in Chicago for my career. I always took the inspectors to task if they were wrong or making something up and it was always worked out. Sadly, I have found some home inspectors not as professional. This inspector claims in 20 years this is the only one he has seen so I had to remind him about the 1 last year that was refused.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:?

10/2 NM was never permitted? Really? I assume you are naming 10/2 NM with ground and 10/2 NMB with ground. I am specifically asking how a clothes dryer branch circuit was wired BEFORE the early 90's end of the standard 3-wire crows foot 30 Amp clothes dryer receptacle only era. Most of the country wired a standard dwelling electric clothes dryer with two-wire NM and never gave a concern to whether the "grounded conductor" was insulated. Extremely few electric clothes dryers had any 120 Volt load component anyhow.
Click to expand...

I disagree with that because most all the motors were/are 120V. Only 240V was the heating elements.

To add to this, people get confused about the neutral being bonded to the frame of a range or dryer. The allowance was that the grounded (neutral) could be used as the grounding (EGC). It was never allowed that the grounding (EGC) be used as the grounded (neutral). With the exception of SE cable and that coming from the main panel.
So a 10-2 NM with bare ground was not permitted because that would be using the EGC as the grounded conductor.
 
Little Bill said:
I disagree with that because most all the motors were/are 120V. Only 240V was the heating elements.

To add to this, people get confused about the neutral being bonded to the frame of a range or dryer. The allowance was that the grounded (neutral) could be used as the grounding (EGC). It was never allowed that the grounding (EGC) be used as the grounded (neutral). With the exception of SE cable and that coming from the main panel.
So a 10-2 NM with bare ground was not permitted because that would be using the EGC as the grounded conductor.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that I wouldn't say never, take a look at post #9. The SE cable exception first appeared in the 1968 NEC.
 
jsmalone1 said:
It's really sad as this particular home is at the lower end and neither buyer or seller are really able to pay for this.
Click to expand...

Then the buyers can just ignore the HI and complete the home purchase. He has no authority to stop them.

And if they are paying for the inspection, they should call him out.

My daughter bought a home and the HI told her that the GFCI should be removed from the garage receptacle circuit because if you put a freezer out there, you'll lose you food when it trips. She just ignored that point.
 
infinity said:
I'm not so sure that I wouldn't say never, take a look at post #9. The SE cable exception first appeared in the 1968 NEC.
Click to expand...

Without seeing the actual language, to me, that means that the bare was not allowed until the exception. "Exception" being the key word.
 
infinity said:
I'm not so sure that I wouldn't say never, take a look at post #9. The SE cable exception first appeared in the 1968 NEC.
Click to expand...

Prior to that you would need an insulated grounded conductor (neutral). In the 60's through the early 70's NM cable only had a #16 EGC.
 
Little Bill said:
Without seeing the actual language, to me, that means that the bare was not allowed until the exception. "Exception" being the key word.
Click to expand...

You might be correct, maybe I've read this incorrectly.

1965 NEC:
250-60. Frames of Electric Ranges and Electric Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges and electric clothes dryers shall be grounded by any means provided in Sections 250-57 and 250-59 or where served by a 120-240 volt, three-wire branch circuits, they may be grounded by connection to the grounded circuit conductors, provided the grounded circuit conductors are not smaller than No. 10 AWG. The frames of wall-mounted ovens and counter-mounted cooking units shall be grounded and may be grounded in the same manner as electric ranges.
Click to expand...
 
infinity said:
The SE cable requirement first appears in the 1968 NEC. 1965 and prior it states "3 wire branch circuits".
Click to expand...

Little Bill said:
I disagree with that because most all the motors were/are 120V.
Click to expand...

Thanks. This is helping to dispel the clouds in my memory from practices that ended a quarter century ago. (Yow ! ! how time flies.)

I seem to remember Code updates that announced the new enforcement of 10/3 for dryers in the Late Seventies for the very reason you state Bill. It rankled me, at the time, making up a surface mounted dryer "crows foot" receptacle on a block basement wall and having no easy place to land the EGC. Sure, I could have used more parts and labor and assembled an 11B or 1900 box with raised cover and receptacle, but I was being competitive with my pricing.

Thanks for the reference to the '65, Rob. When I apprenticed under the '65, I was shown dryer wiring with 10/2 with ground NM.
 
jsmalone1 said:
It's really sad as this particular home is at the lower end and neither buyer or seller are really able to pay for this. But for me it's also pretty simple, it's allowed and as I see it the appliance manufacturers have addressed this, studied and experimented with this. LG contends the possible current was never even at threshold levels in tests, which is, I assume, why it is not an issue. And for me, I am semi-retired and managed large projects in Chicago for my career. I always took the inspectors to task if they were wrong or making something up and it was always worked out. Sadly, I have found some home inspectors not as professional. This inspector claims in 20 years this is the only one he has seen so I had to remind him about the 1 last year that was refused.
Click to expand...

The HI's inspection report is not binding, at least not in this state. He'd probably excrete bricks if he inspected here; I dont think I've ever seen an older range or dryer wired any other way than with SE cable; this includes houses built before 65.

An electrical inspector may be within his right to call it out if the main panel has been turned into a subpanel, or the receptacle has been moved (even if closer to the panel; the work is no longer "existing", but now modified). Or if it was never up to any code. Replacing a 3 prong range or dryer receptacle doesnt invoke any needed changes afaik.
 
I think this is simple: Inform the party who is paying your bill (I suspect it is the seller or their agent, but whoever) that the HI has made an incorrect call, one that lies outside the NEC requirements. Then stand back and let the buyer and seller negotiate the path forward. I am sure you would be willing to do a rewire job, if one of them agrees to pay you for it. But it does not need to be rewired, and both parties need to understand that.

Give them both a link to this thread, if that will help. :happyyes:
 
charlie b said:
I think this is simple: Inform the party who is paying your bill (I suspect it is the seller or their agent, but whoever) that the HI has made an incorrect call, one that lies outside the NEC requirements. Then stand back and let the buyer and seller negotiate the path forward. I am sure you would be willing to do a rewire job, if one of them agrees to pay you for it. But it does not need to be rewired, and both parties need to understand that.

Give them both a link to this thread, if that will help. :happyyes:
Click to expand...

Well written.
 
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