Home Inspector question

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

acwservices

Senior Member
Location
Eastern NC
Okay, I should know the answer to this, but for the life of me, I cannot locate a reference in the NEC. If someone could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. On a recent home inspection report, the home inspector cited "mutiple conductors improperly connected under the same screw on the neutrel bar." I see this quite a bit on inspection reports, and usually I can just remove one of the conductors, and move it to an empty hole on the neautrel bar. However, there are no empty spaces available on this panel. It is a Cutler Hammer, BR series, and even though the house is over 10 years old, the electrical system looks good overall. I don't know who the electrician was who wired this house when it was built originally, but he obviously took pride in workmanship. This electrical system looks so good overall that I want to be sure that there is a code violation before I recommend a costly repair to the seller.
 
acwservices said:
Okay, I should know the answer to this, but for the life of me, I cannot locate a reference in the NEC. If someone could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. On a recent home inspection report, the home inspector cited "mutiple conductors improperly connected under the same screw on the neutrel bar." I see this quite a bit on inspection reports, and usually I can just remove one of the conductors, and move it to an empty hole on the neautrel bar. However, there are no empty spaces available on this panel. It is a Cutler Hammer, BR series, and even though the house is over 10 years old, the electrical system looks good overall. I don't know who the electrician was who wired this house when it was built originally, but he obviously took pride in workmanship. This electrical system looks so good overall that I want to be sure that there is a code violation before I recommend a costly repair to the seller.
Click to expand...



If you can double up on the grounds and land neutrals one to a screw that should fix it.
I know that you are only allowed 1 neutral per screw but my code book is at work.
I don't think there is a rule against more than 1 ground per screw.
I'm sure Iwire can give the code reference....
 
realolman said:
How much does a wire nut cost?:smile:
Click to expand...
It's not quite that simple. You need to size the wire properly or check the phases that the circuits are going to. If this is a main panel you can usually double up on the grounding conductors and use the empty spots for the grounded conductors.
 
qcroanoke said:
I don't think there is a rule against more than 1 ground per screw.
I'm sure Iwire can give the code reference....
Click to expand...

It appears you beat me to it. Usually the terminals are rated for 2 wires and there is no code against the grounding wires being together. For that matter you can pigtail them.
 
acwservices said:
Okay, I should know the answer to this, but for the life of me, I cannot locate a reference in the NEC. If someone could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. On a recent home inspection report, the home inspector cited "mutiple conductors improperly connected under the same screw on the neutrel bar." I see this quite a bit on inspection reports, and usually I can just remove one of the conductors, and move it to an empty hole on the neautrel bar. However, there are no empty spaces available on this panel. It is a Cutler Hammer, BR series, and even though the house is over 10 years old, the electrical system looks good overall. I don't know who the electrician was who wired this house when it was built originally, but he obviously took pride in workmanship. This electrical system looks so good overall that I want to be sure that there is a code violation before I recommend a costly repair to the seller.
Click to expand...

Can we assume you were at this house ? Why would this be costly if you were there ? 15 minutes worth of pigtailing 2 onto 1 (not same phase).few feet of wire and some wire nuts.Yes it was a violation and the electrician made a mistake.Easy fix.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
15 minutes worth of pigtailing 2 onto 1 (not same phase).few feet of wire and some wire nuts.Yes it was a violation and the electrician made a mistake.Easy fix.
Click to expand...

So would you need to treat this as a multiwire circuit since they are sharing a neutral and use DP breakers?
 
408.41nin the 05 and 08 and 408.21 in the 02 code cycle. before 2002 it was okayThanks alot jwelectric for the code reference of 408.41. I have read section 408 many times, I don't know how I missed that.

If you can double up on the grounds and land neutrals one to a screw that should fix it.
I know that you are only allowed 1 neutral per screw but my code book is at work.
I don't think there is a rule against more than 1 ground per screw.
I'm sure Iwire can give the code reference.... This is a subpanel, therefore the grounds and neutral are seperate.

Can we assume you were at this house ? Why would this be costly if you were there ? 15 minutes worth of pigtailing 2 onto 1 (not same phase).few feet of wire and some wire nuts.Yes it was a violation and the electrician made a mistake.Easy fix. Yes, I was at the house doing some other minor electrical repairs. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but pigtailing with a wirenut will still violate 408.41?
 
jwelectric said:
408.41nin the 05 and 08 and 408.21 in the 02 code cycle. before 2002 it was okay
Click to expand...
I didn't look at those articles, besides wire nuts, the additional neutral bar is an expensive fix? What is the rating of the this CH bar?
But the new code says you can't modify an existing panel beyond its design intent.:rolleyes:
 
cadpoint said:
I didn't look at those articles, besides wire nuts, the additional neutral bar is an expensive fix? What is the rating of the this CH bar?
But the new code says you can't modify an existing panel beyond its design intent.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I agree with the wire nut solution as it will work.

I also think that the idea that Jim had with his proposal was a good idea but it took a beating in the comment stage to where it stands now.
 
If you're going to pigtail, I would make no assumptions about phase on the circuits. Those could get rearranged and there is no x-3 cable to warn you of a multiwire branch circuit. I'd combine two #14's with a #10 and put the #10 on the neutral bar. Same with two #12's and a #8.
 
suemarkp said:
If you're going to pigtail, I would make no assumptions about phase on the circuits. Those could get rearranged and there is no x-3 cable to warn you of a multiwire branch circuit. I'd combine two #14's with a #10 and put the #10 on the neutral bar. Same with two #12's and a #8.
Click to expand...

We can not worry about what others do in the future.Its our job to make what we are installing legal as of now.
I do think it might be good idea to use #10 or #8 just simply because we know some non qualified person might be next person in the panel.

Would this now be a multi wire circuit ? Yes. I do think it be better than what we have now in the OP panel.
 
I don't believe it is a MWBC if you use the neutrals of the same phase.

'05 Art. 100 defines a MWBC as 2 or more phase conductors that have a voltage between them...

It seems to go without saying that you would definately have to watch your wire sizes... ain't that what electricians do?:smile:

I guess I just don't see any reason to make a "costly repair" mountain out of a double landed mole hill.
 
the UL white book under panelboards, requires that an individual terminal be provided for the connection of each branch circuit neutral conductor, so i am not sure about pigtailing
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top