Home Inspector question

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mpd said:
the UL white book under panelboards, requires that an individual terminal be provided for the connection of each branch circuit neutral conductor, so i am not sure about pigtailing
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Wouldn't that be concerning only panelboards?

Can a "pigail" be used elsewhere?
 
realolman said:
I don't believe it is a MWBC if you use the neutrals of the same phase.

'05 Art. 100 defines a MWBC as 2 or more phase conductors that have a voltage between them...

It seems to go without saying that you would definately have to watch your wire sizes... ain't that what electricians do?:smile:

I guess I just don't see any reason to make a "costly repair" mountain out of a double landed mole hill.
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No you don't want to make unnecessary repairs but we are professionals and if you modify the circuits and turn them into a MWBC (IMO) you need to make the necessary changes to make it to code. See 210.4 (handle ties, groupig, etc.)
 
acwservices said:
It is a Cutler Hammer, BR series, and even though the house is over 10 years old, the electrical system looks good overall.
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Let the inspector know that this house was built 10 years ago and that install was legal then. You should not be required to bring a house that was built before 2002 into 2008 code.
 
Twoskinsoneman said:
No you don't want to make unnecessary repairs but we are professionals and if you modify the circuits and turn them into a MWBC (IMO) you need to make the necessary changes to make it to code. See 210.4 (handle ties, groupig, etc.)
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In the '05 NEC in art 100 it defines a Branch Circuit, Multiwire as consisting of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them...

the conductors from the same phase would not have a voltage between them. Splicing the neutral conductors together in the load center for the purposes of eliminating the two conductors under one terminal would not IMO make it a MWBC.

What makes it a MWBC? It doesn't meet the definition or do anything that a MWBC would be utilized to do.



The OP spoke of expensive repairs. That seems to me silly to remedy this violation. What would you think if it was your house?

Edited: Also, what Dennis Alwon said.
 
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I must be missing something here. What is so costly about adding another 10 dollar neutral bar and a jumper ?
 
nakulak said:
I must be missing something here. What is so costly about adding another 10 dollar neutral bar and a jumper ?
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Usually there is no room for another bar and they are not so available around here.
 
realolman said:
In the '05 NEC in art 100 it defines a Branch Circuit, Multiwire as consisting of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them...

the conductors from the same phase would not have a voltage between them. Splicing the neutral conductors together in the load center for the purposes of eliminating the two conductors under one terminal would not IMO make it a MWBC.

What makes it a MWBC? It doesn't meet the definition or do anything that a MWBC would be utilized to do.



The OP spoke of expensive repairs. That seems to me silly to remedy this violation. What would you think if it was your house?

Edited: Also, what Dennis Alwon said.
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I'm so with you realolman. Some of these guys are making a huge mountain out of an anthill. This is pure insanity! This is such a simple fix it's ashame. Put another ground bar in to free up space on the existing neutral bar. You may not even have to do that if you can double or triple up some of the grounds of the same size together. Either way it's so easy!!
 
steelersman said:
just a ground bar will do it!! No need for neutral bar because then he has to make sure it's insulated from the cabinet.
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Either way, but we don't know if just an EGC bar will get it done.
 
steelersman said:
just a ground bar will do it!! No need for neutral bar because then he has to make sure it's insulated from the cabinet.
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A ground bar is a ground bar -- it is not insulated from the cabinet.. Okay maybe I misunderstood this.

Some of these guys are making a huge mountain out of an anthill. This is pure insanity! This is such a simple fix it's ashame. Put another ground bar in to free up space on the existing neutral bar. You may not even have to do that if you can double or triple up some of the grounds of the same size together. Either way it's so easy!!
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Some of these guys already stated those suggestions.

what gives you the idea that they are sharing a neutral. He never said that.
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One of the suggestions Jim made was to make sure you had wires from opposite phases and pigtail the neutral. If that is not a MWBC then what is????
 
iwire said:
Say what?

Adding a UL listed Neutral bar would be fine IMO.
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We can not use bars that are not listed for use in this panel any more than we can use unlisted breakers.

I am just messing with you Bob.Its a minor problem with many ways to cure it cheaply.Add a bar or use pigtails.Its not a big deal but not good to share a lug with 2 neutrals.Not sure if it was legal 10 years ago.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
A ground bar is a ground bar -- it is not insulated from the cabinet.. Okay maybe I misunderstood this.


Some of these guys already stated those suggestions.


One of the suggestions Jim made was to make sure you had wires from opposite phases and pigtail the neutral. If that is not a MWBC then what is????
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I forgot for a moment that it was a sub-panel and that a ground bar wouldn't work, but it would if it was a main panel.

And how is it that just because you pigtail 2 neutrals together in the panel that it's now a MWBC? IMO they need to share a common neutral to be a MWBC.
 
steelersman said:
just a ground bar will do it!! No need for neutral bar because then he has to make sure it's insulated from the cabinet.
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edit: a ground bar won't do it in this situation as it's a sub-panel. I was thinking too far ahead of myself I guess.
 
steelersman said:
I forgot for a moment that it was a sub-panel and that a ground bar wouldn't work, but it would if it was a main panel.

And how is it that just because you pigtail 2 neutrals together in the panel that it's now a MWBC? IMO they need to share a common neutral to be a MWBC.
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And if pigtailed they DO share a common neutral even if only for a few inches.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
And if pigtailed they DO share a common neutral even if only for a few inches.
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yeah I thought of that as I was finishing the sentence but I think that's a little nitpicky. Perhaps you could oversize the few inches of shared neutral .
 
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