Home inspectors and Square D QO breakers

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Even if it is listed, I never put 2 wires on the breaker terminal...I splice it 6 inches away from the breaker.
 
Those of you that offered advise, I thank you.

I had already gone to the Schneider website, printed and highlighted the spec sheets.

I went to the site today and made sure the load on the cited breakers was acceptable with every electrical item operating, wrote a letter, attached the highlighted spec sheet and collected payment.

Hopefully the customers sale will go through.
 
infinity said:
Like electricians there are good and bad HI's. Over the years I've dealt with some really bad ones especially when I sold my own house. They're taught to look for "double taps" often without a general understanding of why they're permitted or prohibited. I just write up something to explain their errors and move on.
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I don't know when they changed to current design, been at least 40 maybe 50 years ago, but some of the oldest QO breakers out there don't have today's design for the load terminal on 15-30 amp breakers, and likely are only listed for one conductor.

infinity said:
In many places Hi's are forbidden from citing code as they should be, after all they're not code inspectors.
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True, they are a set of eyes to look at things in the home that might need attention and might be of interest to buyer and/or seller. What either does with the information report from said inspection is nothing more then information that can be used for purchase agreement reasons. None of the deficiencies is required by either party to be "fixed" it is just something they can use as a tool to get an idea of the condition of the home they are buying/selling. Nothing wrong with asking another professional their opinion on something in that report either.

Some cases nothing on the report gets fixed. Owner might just lower asking price and buyer accepts it and neither does anything about any deficiencies on the report.

Jraef said:
The problem I've seen is that they WILL cite the correct code section (110.14), but they don't understand that if the device is LISTED for two wires per terminal, it meets that code. Other than Square D QO 15-20A breakers, I don't think there are any others that allow two wires per terminal, hence the problem.
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QO has same terminals on 15-30 amp breakers. Homeline has same thing, so does NF (277/480 rated) up to 30 amps.

I also seem to recall Cutler Hammer CH series being rated for two conductors, but don't run into a lot of them anymore so not quite certain. About 30 years ago CH was what we mostly installed as new where I was working at that time.
 
infinity said:
In many places Hi's are forbidden from citing code as they should be, after all they're not code inspectors.
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Jraef said:
The problem I've seen is that they WILL cite the correct code section (110.14), but they don't understand that if the device is LISTED for two wires per terminal, it meets that code. Other than Square D QO 15-20A breakers, I don't think there are any others that allow two wires per terminal, hence the problem.
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in this instance, there were no codes cited, just a recommendation to have an electrician investigate the "double tapped" breakers.
 
mjf said:
in this instance, there were no codes cited, just a recommendation to have an electrician investigate the "double tapped" breakers.
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They were just covering themselves as they are not qualified to make a determination of how safe the double taps are.
 
mjf said:
Those of you that offered advise, I thank you.

I had already gone to the Schneider website, printed and highlighted the spec sheets.

I went to the site today and made sure the load on the cited breakers was acceptable with every electrical item operating, wrote a letter, attached the highlighted spec sheet and collected payment.

Hopefully the customers sale will go through.
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There shouldn't be a problem. I have never had anyone question the way I addressed an issue on a home inspection report.

I write up the issue found by the home inspector by item number and the correction or explanation of why it's not a problem.

The fast and easy way to deal with these double taps is just to eliminate the double tap. Splice the two conductors togather. That way if there is a seperate home inspection by another potential buyer it won't get written up again.
 
growler said:
They were just covering themselves as they are not qualified to make a determination of how safe the double taps are.
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I'll be happy to give the owner a written statement that this is in compliance with codes and listing of the equipment involved, and an invoice of $200 for 10-15 minutes of work done at my convenience. $500 if you want it "immediately".;)

Let owner complain about HI's apparent incompetence.

HI's are not common in my area. Larger cities maybe, but I don't work there so don't see what goes on there. I do get requests occasionally from real estate agents or lenders to look at electrical, seems it is always some older house with the typical older house issues, even if they have given it a "facelift". They never want to spend anything on the inspection, but yet "we want to know if the wiring is safe". I usually tell them I don't know when I can get to it, even if I could go there right now. Reality is the purchaser's insurance is who is typically most interested in what is there, but often they are not really part of the picture yet at this point in the game. I don't want to play the game unless well reimbursed, just not worth it.
 
Not double tap, I had a hi reject a #10uf overhead for being the wrong type of wire; funny I had intentionally made sure the rating on the jacket was exposed near the jbox. Took the owner up to the jbox and showed him, still ended up writing a document for him.
 
mjf said:
in this instance, there were no codes cited, just a recommendation to have an electrician investigate the "double tapped" breakers.
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That is the proper course of action. There shouldn't be any code citation from an HI just a recommendation for further evaluation by a professional. Many times I have been called to investigate the findings on an HI report and like others here I explain why it's not a violation and cite to proper resource. If the HI is doing his job I leave the comments there.

I did have a HI report last year that was written by an idiot and I had no problem calling him out to the lawyers, realtor and buyer because he was IMO incompetent. The deal eventually fell through likely because of him.
 
infinity said:
That is the proper course of action. There shouldn't be any code citation from an HI just a recommendation for further evaluation by a professional. Many times I have been called to investigate the findings on an HI report and like others here I explain why it's not a violation and cite to proper resource. If the HI is doing his job I leave the comments there.

I did have a HI report last year that was written by an idiot and I had no problem calling him out to the lawyers, realtor and buyer because he was IMO incompetent. The deal eventually fell through likely because of him.
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I responded to an HI report about the utility's service drop being too small. I told him the NEC doesn't cover utilities. He persisted and claimed it was too small regardless (#2 on a 200a service).

I told him that's on the utility, not the current or prospective owner. He still said it needed to be changed.

I finally asked him what, actually, he's inspecting. He said, "The house Mr. Soandso is wanting to purchase." I then said, "Well, that wire is NOT what Mr. Soandso is buying. It's not the property of the current owner, and Mr. Soandso will not be buying it. It belongs to the utility. It's their property, their responsibility and their liability. If the sale is completed, Mr. Soandso will NOT be the legal owner of those wires. So it kinda sounds like you're outside your scope of work."

End of conversation.
 
I went to a home three weeks ago that listed double tap breakers, in the HI report, and ignored the 30 ground wires twisted together and landed in the lug on the neutral bar.
 
Chamuit said:
I went to a home three weeks ago that listed double tap breakers, in the HI report, and ignored the 30 ground wires twisted together and landed in the lug on the neutral bar.
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I'm not surprised and have seen similar things missed over the years. I would guess that it has to do with training they receive and the double tap is at the top of the list. :)
 
infinity said:
I'm not surprised and have seen similar things missed over the years. I would guess that it has to do with training they receive and the double tap is at the top of the list. :)
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I jokingly refer to some HI's as being a graduate of the Class of Tuesday 11:30AM.
 
The problem as I see it is that most home buyers have no clue (else they would do their own inspection) so they think a home inspector is some kind of degreed professional like a PE whose report is gospel. Every home inspection report should be prefaced with the heading:

Nothing in this report should be construed as a notification that there is a deficiency in any code or law. Deficiencies noted are only the opinion of the individual doing the inspection. Any deficiency or problem noted should be followed up with by a licensed professional in the particular trade. He or she is the only one who can advise you and make the final determination as whether something needs to be corrected. Nothing in this report should be used as a basis for negotiation between buyer and seller or the need for work or repairs.


-Hal
 
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