Home Inspectors

[ghostbuster]

I will probably get "beat up" for suggesting this ,but in Canada we have a DYI publication ($20) for the electrical code--this may give you a better understanding of electrical issues in layman terms but of course in U.S. the NEC code is gospel.There are attempts to harmonize the codes in both countries but it still is long way off.Maybe in the U.S. there is something similar.

http://www.amazon.ca/Electrical-Code-Simplified-House-Wiring/dp/0920312489

 

[kwired]

So do you inspect plumbing, structure, HVAC, foundation, etc....?

I take it NE doesn't license HI's

Roger

HI is not mentioned anywhere in the State Electrical Division licensing information. All we have is Contractor, Journeyman, and a few special installers licenses, fire alarm installer is only one that comes to mind right now but I think there are a couple others. I think in recent years they brought back a version of "residential only" journeyman, but unless you live in a larger city that license is almost meaningless, out here in the boonies you do it all or you don't do it at all.

You likely can find a "home inspector" in larger cities, but not out here in the boonies, so local electricians get the call when someone desires some kind of inspection. I get requests for insurance purposes as well and I get the feeling goiing in from most that they think I am just going to say things are ok with maybe a minor thing here or there that needs attention - I give them full report of my findings - seldom say anything is absolutely wrong unless I know it never met any code (new or old) or just presents an obvious hazard (maybe exposed live parts), I just state what is not up to current codes with a note that some things may have been code at the time of install, and disclaim that things concealed in the walls and ceilings may or may not be safe or up to code but could look at them more closely if they wish to open the walls and ceilings.

Again I hate doing those inspections in the first place and try to minimize how many I do by pricing myself out of requests for that service.

I don't inspect anything but electrical for hire - will make suggestions for friends and relatives on other things but when it comes to advice in those other areas they get exactly what they paid for:happyyes:

 

[jxofaltrds]

Potentially one of the most despised professions in the Real Estate industry is the Home Inspector, I being one myself can say with no uncertainty it comes from all directions and rightfully so in many instances.. my question is are there any books for "inspecting" residential electrical systems that are well known for both thoroughness in "needed" knowledge and good graphics OR are there any exceptional videos known that cover the electrical inspection?
I, as many, Home Inspectors have a very good understanding in areas of the home construction process but lack in others, there are NO Home Inspectors I have ever met that can answer all questions of the different areas we inspect.
Even if you do not know of books or videos I would like to know what experiences you have had with Home Inspectors and things you wish they had a better understanding of? Granted, there are those Inspectors that re plain clueless, lets skip them..

None? Want to meet sometime? It took years but you CAN become an expert in all of the 4 major categories.

ICC has tests that you can take.

What I have taken:

B1 Residential Building Inspector
E1& E2 Residential Electrical Inspector
M1 Residential Mechanical Inspector
P1 Residential Plumbing Inspector

IMHO study the definitions in the NEC first. Then search here for specific topics that you have questions on. Again IMHO any question that a HI needs to know is here. If not most here will try to help you.

 

[kwired]

None? Want to meet sometime? It took years but you CAN become an expert in all of the 4 major categories.

ICC has tests that you can take.

What I have taken:

B1 Residential Building Inspector
E1& E2 Residential Electrical Inspector
M1 Residential Mechanical Inspector
P1 Residential Plumbing Inspector

IMHO study the definitions in the NEC first. Then search here for specific topics that you have questions on. Again IMHO any question that a HI needs to know is here. If not most here will try to help you.

There is usually a big difference between the "multiple hat" AHJ inspectors who are mostly about code compliance and a typical private HI used for gaining information of the general condition of a home.

There are also highly educated (on paper) professionals in any profession that don't really know their stuff all that well and some that entered the same field with little or no education that are very good at what they do.

 

[electricalist]

Tell the HI you need to run a background check and need him to submit in writing his qualifications, with notary stamp.

 

[infinity]

Tell the HI you need to run a background check and need him to submit in writing his qualifications, with notary stamp.

What purpose would that serve?

Also just a note, let's not turn this into a bash the HI thread. :happyno:

 

[jxofaltrds]

There is usually a big difference between the "multiple hat" AHJ inspectors who are mostly about code compliance and a typical private HI used for gaining information of the general condition of a home.

There are also highly educated (on paper) professionals in any profession that don't really know their stuff all that well and some that entered the same field with little or no education that are very good at what they do.

All true. Just took exception to the "NO" part. Lol.

 

[electricalist]

I didn't mean it like that boss. We make good money from them. I meant it for those who send red tag HI for price haggling

 

[roger]

All true. Just took exception to the "NO" part. Lol.

So let me get this straight, you know everything?

Roger

 

[jxofaltrds]

So let me get this straight, you know everything?

Roger

Memorized? No. Close at hand? Pretty much a yes. Resy ain't that hard.

 

[kendm1]

Yep, been there, done that.. unfortunately I see some questionable inpectors around that appear to have left their walking dog at home.. :blink:.. since WE are only required to report on the visible (except some of us use more gadgets than others) it's not too bad, but some people DO BELIEVE we have x-ray vision and know the code books by heart, which we all know no person does.
My biggest problem is I do the very best I can and there are many inspectors who work for the agents and not their clients, they, the agents, have been threatening to put me out of business for more than 16 years and cost me at least $250,000 in verifiable cancellations after I scheduled an inspection then their agent made up some B.S story or said they wouldn't let me in the house. They love Inspectors who "help them sell".

New construction will often see multiple inspectors , who will view the work in progress w/multiple visitations

That a HI is expected to view it all for problems decades later is akin to asking for Xray eyes and a magic wand.

So they (the HI's) are placed in a bureaucratic tug o' war , with factions on one side hanging what is often a very litigant hat on nothing more than a few hours of tire kicking, and a sea of legal sharks on the other poised to gnaw holes in it.

Entering the wraith of liability into the equation , the insurance cabal eventually defines standards and guidelines (because they own everything out to Pluto) , resulting in certifications, as seen via org's like NACHI , who's adoption by state has been nefarious at best

~RJ~

 

[kendm1]

Finance companies do not use Home Inspectors, it is for the buyer to decide if they get one. On the CSST note, The bonding conductor shall be no smaller than a 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. The bonding conductor shall beinstalled and protected in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, (NEC) and Canadian Electrical Code CSAC22.1(CEC). Bonding/grounding clamps shall be installed in accordance with its listing per UL 467 and shall makemetal-to-metal contact with a rigid pipe component or CSST fitting. This direct-bond is in addition to any otherbonding requirements as specified by local codes for ground fault protection.The 2015 edition of the National Fuel Gas Code, International Fuel Gas Code, and Uniform Plumbing Code limits thelength of the bonding conductor to 75-ft. When there are no local code requirements for the length of thisconductor refer to the manufactures instructions or the NEC / CEC for guidance regarding the permissible length ofthe bonding conductor. It can and does cause gas leaks if there are lightning strikes in the area of the home so it only makes sense to do it no matter who it is that does it.. electricians I think would rather make the money? It has been documented many times where a homes CSST got numerous pin hole leaks due to the stray voltage through the earth to the CSST and we have hundreds of thousands of them out there right now ungrounded. waiting to kill someone. The best money a home buyer will EVER spend is not in the trades getting work done, it is when they hire a competent and thorough Home Inspector. I have NEVER in over 6000 home inspections found a home built to code. The report allows the buyer to decide if they want to go further with the purchase if the sellers are not willing to negotiate. Like I tell my clients, I'll tell you more about the home than you will learn in all the years you live there.. guaranteed.

IMO the city inspector was right (on the CSST) if he was an "electrical only" inspector. Bonding of the CSST is not covered in the NEC, it is required by the CSST listing, and should be the responsibility of the CSST installer to ensure it is done, and whoever is responsible to inspect gas codes to enforce it. Of course a "home inspector" is typically wearing both hats to some degree. (Full disclosure; I copy and pasted the NEC and NFPA info)

IMO a HI is nothing more then a tool for finance companies to use for leverage when underwriting mortgages. In general the HI has no "authority" to demand anything be changed, he is just writing a "report card" of the condition of things in the home. Buyers and sellers can use this report for negotiating but no deficiencies in that report are legally required to be changed. Finance companies and even insurance companies however will refuse to work with you sometimes if you don't comply with what they want - and that is "free enterprise" you can possibly find a finance company that won't make you change anything, or maybe pay a higher interest rate or a higher insurance premium.

Buying a previously lived in home is like buying a used car. Things do wear out, need replaced/repaired, and there usually is no warranties, yet mortgage companies seem to expect the home to be "like new condition" according to inspection reports or it raises red flags

A 10 year old home is typically still a fairly new home, but likely does have code issues that have changed since it was new.

A 10 year old used car - much more common to be used beyond it's intended capacity, and safety equipment (if still functioning correctly) also has been superceeded in new car standards - but the car is still legal to drive at it's original standards.

 

[kendm1]

LOL! Almost totally agree but in no way shape or form is a qualified Home Inspector a "gimmick", I know inspectors that would likely run circles around 50+% of electricians and I constantly find poor installations by "Licensed Electricians". There are actually more than a handful of very competent inspectors I attend continuing ed classes with twice per year and have for 17 years, and there are also a much larger number that probably shouldn't be inspecting at all.. they are the ones I have a problem with. As far as the bargaining tool? Did you know pretty much all decks are improperly built and have a life of 10-15 years? And people die all the time or are committed to a life in a wheelchair or worse? I would sure hate to buy a home and not know my deck was a safety hazard for my kids. Grading is not proper on 80% of almost all homes and can cause foundation failure, improper gutter pitches cause all kinds of issues, lack of proper weep holes and flashings are rampant and can cause moisture issues that cost many thousands of dollars to correct, most roofs aren't installed to manufacturers requirements etc, etc, etc? I don't know about you but spending a few hundred dollars for a good inspector to spend 5-6 hours inspecting and writing a report is a pretty dang good bargain! And remember, there are other inspectors like me that had 20 years construction experience prior to "taking a 8 hour cclass" which by the way there is no such thing unless your in a non licensed state.

I will agree with some others here that a HI is just a gimmick to make some money and to be used as a bargaining tool. You cant just pick up a book or take a 8 hour class on electrical inspections and think your going to know it all. As previously stated if a house was built in the 50's and done to code than the 2 prong outlets are legal, don't need a GFI in the bathroom or kitchen. Go back even further knob and tube is still good. As for a HI once telling me that the Type S fuses needed to be changed in a house I was selling I ripped him a good one. Could not show me in the code where it was required plus a few other items he said was wrong. I have over 45 years in the trade and I still reference the code. The one that I get a kick out of the most is there are rust spots in the bottom of the panel it needs to be changed.

It would be like me saying that since I did my 8 hour red-cross basic first aid class last weekend that I can work in the ER as an intern. You need to know the the limitations that you are capable of doing.

It would be better if a HI who knew what he was doing would recommend instead of saying things need to be changed. I would take someone who recommends more seriously than someone who tells me what needs to be done.

example:

The wiring to the panel is properly protected with type "S" fuses. Recommend that you upgrade to breakers.

Although the bathroom receptacle is not GFI protected this was within the code when built. Recommend replacing with a GFI receptacle.

Same wording to apply for the kitchen.

The bottom of the electrical panel shows signs of surface rust. Explain more clearly is it because the area was a little damp, is there a trace of water being on the service entrance feeders did the paint get scrapped off.

The problem that I see you having is finding out when the house was built and applying the proper years code for your inspection.

And sorry if it seems like I am being a little offensive just my opinion.

I along with many others have done this for a lifetime and take pride in what I do.

PS. you don't do inspections in MA, ME, VT, NH, CT or RI do you?

 

[kendm1]

That is why I explain to clients the entire system should be evaluated by a competent, licensed Electrician since we are not licensed and do minimally invasive testing. But it's pretty obvious when the Electrician bundled the wires from the panel through the wall and attic and never secured any and there are #14 wires running 80' most of the way not separated the installer has some issues, likely some we did not find. It is the real estate people who try to send the Electrician to address "just what the Inspector wrote up" because they don't want everything found in my opinion. And I have dealt with agents for over 35 years and they are a worthless industry in my book.

I've been the sparky sent to address the HI's 'report card' , and then had to answer up to layers claiming i was the last professionally licensed entity , ergo liable for what i DID NOT address.

Since then, you could say i don't play very well with others.

~RJ~

 

[kendm1]

WOW! Do you even do voltage drops or anything or just stab a few outlets and open the main panel?

Absolutely.

When I get requests to inspect a home, usually from a local lending institution, I make similar statements in my inspection report. I also put in statements that clearly indicate I did not inspect every electrical related item on the property, in order to do so I would need to remove wall, ceiling, and other finishes in order to see all the wiring and that I would also need to take apart every luminaire, receptacle switch etc. I do indicate that I may have randomly looked at a few items and if I did not see any questionable installation practices that it may be assumed that majority of similar items are done in similar fashion as what was looked at.

I usually try to get out of those inspections first by being too high priced to do them. The people that want them want cheap and either want you to say everything is good (whether true or not) or they want a list of things that are in need of attention to use to bring down seller's price. Last thing i need from these people is to have a fire or other accident because something happened and they claim I said the place was safe, yet the fire starts in something I would have never seen without spending a lot of time doing a very thorough inspection. I will mention things that possibly were compliant when installed but no longer meet today's codes - let them decide what to do with that information.

 

[kendm1]

I'd like to know that one but have to assume he means he ONLY looks at electrical, it would be illegal for him to look at anything else as it is a Licensing State.

So do you inspect plumbing, structure, HVAC, foundation, etc....?

I take it NE doesn't license HI's

Roger

 

[kendm1]

:happyno: But thanks! I have found too many differences..

I will probably get "beat up" for suggesting this ,but in Canada we have a DYI publication ($20) for the electrical code--this may give you a better understanding of electrical issues in layman terms but of course in U.S. the NEC code is gospel.There are attempts to harmonize the codes in both countries but it still is long way off.Maybe in the U.S. there is something similar.

http://www.amazon.ca/Electrical-Code-Simplified-House-Wiring/dp/0920312489

 

[kendm1]

Here in the back woods of KY you had better not do a home inspection no matter where you are and I wouldn't be surprised if not all States are written the same way, you CANNOT inspect more than what your license allows, period.

HI is not mentioned anywhere in the State Electrical Division licensing information. All we have is Contractor, Journeyman, and a few special installers licenses, fire alarm installer is only one that comes to mind right now but I think there are a couple others. I think in recent years they brought back a version of "residential only" journeyman, but unless you live in a larger city that license is almost meaningless, out here in the boonies you do it all or you don't do it at all.

You likely can find a "home inspector" in larger cities, but not out here in the boonies, so local electricians get the call when someone desires some kind of inspection. I get requests for insurance purposes as well and I get the feeling goiing in from most that they think I am just going to say things are ok with maybe a minor thing here or there that needs attention - I give them full report of my findings - seldom say anything is absolutely wrong unless I know it never met any code (new or old) or just presents an obvious hazard (maybe exposed live parts), I just state what is not up to current codes with a note that some things may have been code at the time of install, and disclaim that things concealed in the walls and ceilings may or may not be safe or up to code but could look at them more closely if they wish to open the walls and ceilings.

Again I hate doing those inspections in the first place and try to minimize how many I do by pricing myself out of requests for that service.

I don't inspect anything but electrical for hire - will make suggestions for friends and relatives on other things but when it comes to advice in those other areas they get exactly what they paid for:happyyes:

 

[kwired]

Finance companies do not use Home Inspectors, it is for the buyer to decide if they get one. On the CSST note, The bonding conductor shall be no smaller than a 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. The bonding conductor shall beinstalled and protected in accordance with the National Electrical Code, NFPA 70, (NEC) and Canadian Electrical Code CSAC22.1(CEC). Bonding/grounding clamps shall be installed in accordance with its listing per UL 467 and shall makemetal-to-metal contact with a rigid pipe component or CSST fitting. This direct-bond is in addition to any otherbonding requirements as specified by local codes for ground fault protection.The 2015 edition of the National Fuel Gas Code, International Fuel Gas Code, and Uniform Plumbing Code limits thelength of the bonding conductor to 75-ft. When there are no local code requirements for the length of thisconductor refer to the manufactures instructions or the NEC / CEC for guidance regarding the permissible length ofthe bonding conductor. It can and does cause gas leaks if there are lightning strikes in the area of the home so it only makes sense to do it no matter who it is that does it.. electricians I think would rather make the money? It has been documented many times where a homes CSST got numerous pin hole leaks due to the stray voltage through the earth to the CSST and we have hundreds of thousands of them out there right now ungrounded. waiting to kill someone. The best money a home buyer will EVER spend is not in the trades getting work done, it is when they hire a competent and thorough Home Inspector. I have NEVER in over 6000 home inspections found a home built to code. The report allows the buyer to decide if they want to go further with the purchase if the sellers are not willing to negotiate. Like I tell my clients, I'll tell you more about the home than you will learn in all the years you live there.. guaranteed.

I know most of what is required for bonding CSST gas pipe. I also know it is not covered by NEC, it is per listing of the product, and some products do have slightly different instructions - which is why I say I know most of what is required. My personal opinion on CSST and the potential for leaks - I hope to never have any of the stuff in my house, I'd rather see black pipe myself for gas lines. This is easy for me to say because I do run RMC/IMC on some jobs and am used to threading pipe. Many HVAC installers that also run gas lines to their equipment today don't even know how to use a pipe threader. I currently have no gas appliances in my home so not a problem for me right now anyway.

 

[kendm1]

I stick with what I said and doubt seriously you will change my mind. I have no doubt you are very qualified but NO PERSON can know everything, not even you.. :happyno: (And that was my only point.. NO ONE KNOWS IT ALL! Even if highly qualified) Even Jerry the Code Man gets stumped now and then and I doubt you want to butt heads with him but your welcome to try.. just sign up at the Inspectionnews.net forum and try your luck.

None? Want to meet sometime? It took years but you CAN become an expert in all of the 4 major categories.

ICC has tests that you can take.

What I have taken:

B1 Residential Building Inspector
E1& E2 Residential Electrical Inspector
M1 Residential Mechanical Inspector
P1 Residential Plumbing Inspector

IMHO study the definitions in the NEC first. Then search here for specific topics that you have questions on. Again IMHO any question that a HI needs to know is here. If not most here will try to help you.