Home rewire from knob and tube

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Jpflex

Jpflex

Electrician big leagues
Location
Victorville
Occupation
Electrician commercial and residential
I have been rewiring several houses from knob and tube to modern Romex cable and code. However, with only 9 months part time as an apprentice I have been self teaching myself on NEC code in the process.

A couple things I would like to make less ambiguous:

NEC requires two separate 20 ampere small branch circuits in the kitchen, meaning two 12-2 Romex NM cables each being connected to a 20 ampere breaker or....

The code book can be ambiguous on this because 2 or more branch circuits can be interpreted as one NM cable connected to one 20 ampere breaker terminating it’s other end to an AFCI Tamper resistant receptacle and paralleling or BRANCHING to several more receptacles or 2 or more branch circuits. I absolutely hate the ambiguity of NEC wording, I assume NEC meant the first.

(Temperature correction factor already considered in wire and AFCIs and GFCI requirements also already factored in)

Also would like to get more info on mast height requirements, where to cut top, how to connect neutral

Also supply bonding vs loads size bonding one being based on NEC chart to the largest size conductor.

Also will I also have to use bonding bushings for all EMT entering breaker panel?

Can I get away with standard breakers with Temper resistant AFCIs On first Receptacle outlets (within 50ft of 12-2 and 70 ft of 14-2).

Neutral sizing and 83% reduction on feeders?

I do not know dryer or range or NEMA receptacle type to be used but will standard orange 10-2 NM romex Cable suffice For most applications?

House 1250 sq ft, 125 main breaker on standard split phase 120/240 utility

Thanks
 
Jpflex said:
.....

The code book can be ambiguous on this because 2 or more branch circuits can be interpreted as one NM cable connected to one 20 ampere breaker terminating it’s other end to an AFCI Tamper resistant receptacle and paralleling or BRANCHING to several more receptacles or 2 or more branch circuits. I absolutely hate the ambiguity of NEC wording, I assume NEC meant the first.

......
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While you can supply the two small appliance branch circuits using a multiwire circuit connected to two single pole breakers with a handle tie or one two pole breaker, there is no way that you can supply two circuits from one single pole breaker.
Parallel connections on the single branch circuit does not create additional branch circuits. Branch circuits can only originate at the load side of an over current protective device.
 
You sound like someone who should get a code book if you don't have one already.

Jpflex said:
The code book can be ambiguous on this because 2 or more branch circuits can be interpreted as one NM cable connected to one 20 ampere breaker terminating it’s other end to an AFCI Tamper resistant receptacle and paralleling or BRANCHING to several more receptacles or 2 or more branch circuits. I absolutely hate the ambiguity of NEC wording, I assume NEC meant the first.
Click to expand...
Read Article 100 to get familiar with definitions, particularly branch circuit, service, and feeder related ones. In addition to what Don said.
Jpflex said:
Also would like to get more info on mast height requirements, where to cut top, how to connect neutral
Click to expand...

Start with 230.24 for clearances above roofs. Note the exceptions.
Jpflex said:
Also will I also have to use bonding bushings for all EMT entering breaker panel?
Click to expand...
No. I think it's good practice outdoors (and/or always run a green wire ) where boxes and panels typically have a coating that would otherwise need to be removed for reliable bonding. But with indoor work with bare metal making contact everywhere it really isn't necessary, just tighten all your lockrings and coupler and connector set screws so nothing comes apart later. Code doesn't strictly require bonding bushings under 250V, see 250.97 and 250.94 for more.
 
Jpflex said:
Can I get away with standard breakers with Temper resistant AFCIs On first Receptacle outlets (within 50ft of 12-2 and 70 ft of 14-2).

Neutral sizing and 83% reduction on feeders?

I do not know dryer or range or NEMA receptacle type to be used but will standard orange 10-2 NM romex Cable suffice For most applications?

House 1250 sq ft, 125 main breaker on standard split phase 120/240 utility

Thanks
Click to expand...
That exception is not really practical, and IMO its not a good idea to have things that trip scattered all over the place and potentially behind stuff, so just plan on using AFCI and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers.

It pretty much industry standard to use a 2 size reduced neutral for residential feeders. The 83% reduction is only for services or feeders that carry the entire load of a dwelling unit.

plan on 4 wire for range and dryer, so 10-3 for dryer and I would use 6-3 AL SER for range.

I would recommend seeking some help on this project, as you seem a bit over your head. Who is supervising you? Can you ask them questions and have them look over your work?
 
Good people remind me what knob and tube is. I know - ignorant Brit strikes again.
 
electrofelon said:
That exception is not really practical, and IMO its not a good idea to have things that trip scattered all over the place and potentially behind stuff, so just plan on using AFCI and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers.

It pretty much industry standard to use a 2 size reduced neutral for residential feeders. The 83% reduction is only for services or feeders that carry the entire load of a dwelling unit.

plan on 4 wire for range and dryer, so 10-3 for dryer and I would use 6-3 AL SER for range.

I would recommend seeking some help on this project, as you seem a bit over your head. Who is supervising you? Can you ask them questions and have them look over your work?
Click to expand...
 
I was hired as Electrician helper with promise that Journeyman electrician Would be hired. However, I do not think company is willing to pay going rate for a licensed electrician although I do posses a CFF/central electronics tech license and several ASE electrical certs and therefore I have been taking the responsibility of a journeyman. I do have the 2020 nec book and have been observing codes closely. It has taken me time to read the book while doing my job but that is the drawback they must accept for having me do this at such a cut rate mid $20 hourly. I assume licensed journeyman will expect $40 to $60 per hour or more to do the same? Or am I wrong?
 
electrofelon said:
That exception is not really practical, and IMO its not a good idea to have things that trip scattered all over the place and potentially behind stuff, so just plan on using AFCI and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers.

It pretty much industry standard to use a 2 size reduced neutral for residential feeders. The 83% reduction is only for services or feeders that carry the entire load of a dwelling unit.

plan on 4 wire for range and dryer, so 10-3 for dryer and I would use 6-3 AL SER for range.

I would recommend seeking some help on this project, as you seem a bit over your head. Who is supervising you? Can you ask them questions and have them look over your work?
Click to expand...
The company is sooo cheap. When I was working on getting their 5hp 3phase 460 volt motors functioning. I recommended the proper starter based on 1.25 percent of nameplate fla. however, although they supposedly have millions in investor money the owner didn’t want to spend the money and would rather me use what’s in the rusted outdoor junk pile SUCH AS NEMA Size 1 or 2 Starters with way too high ampere rating for overload protection than what my application requires typically 1-2 ampere (not initial draw).

For the same reason besides the difficulty In finding an afci/gfci combo breaker the cost would be a problem for them. So as stated before I opted for the AFCI at first receptacle
 
I read that ice cream shop workers are making $17/hr in Minn. You should go where you are appreciated.
 
Jpflex said:
For the same reason besides the difficulty In finding an afci/gfci combo breaker the cost would be a problem for them. So as stated before I opted for the AFCI at first receptacle
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How is that going to save any money? So you save maybe 15 bucks on a receptacle over the breaker but then you have to use MC as your wiring method. Remember to they need to be readily accessible so you're probably stuck with breakers for some of your stuff anyway.
 
tthh said:
I read that ice cream shop workers are making $17/hr in Minn. You should go where you are appreciated.
Click to expand...
Yeah I would also recommend the op go work somewhere else. Everyone is so busy and it's hard to find people right now, someone who works hard and is driven could land a gig no problem. Sounds like a super shady company that is sending a helper to wire a house with no help or oversight, yikes.
 
Jpflex said:
The company is sooo cheap. When I was working on getting their 5hp 3phase 460 volt motors functioning. I recommended the proper starter based on 1.25 percent of nameplate fla. however, although they supposedly have millions in investor money the owner didn’t want to spend the money and would rather me use what’s in the rusted outdoor junk pile SUCH AS NEMA Size 1 or 2 Starters with way too high ampere rating for overload protection than what my application requires typically 1-2 ampere (not initial draw).

For the same reason besides the difficulty In finding an afci/gfci combo breaker the cost would be a problem for them. So as stated before I opted for the AFCI at first receptacle
Click to expand...
How are you getting permits and inspections if you aren't licensed and the company doesn't have journeyman? Is there a Master there?
 
Little Bill said:
How are you getting permits and inspections if you aren't licensed and the company doesn't have journeyman? Is there a Master there?
Click to expand...
No such thing as a Master in California, except for the license qualifier.

He could be working for a GC, legally, if the job involves other trades.

But point taken.
 
electrofelon said:
Yeah I would also recommend the op go work somewhere else. Everyone is so busy and it's hard to find people right now, someone who works hard and is driven could land a gig no problem. Sounds like a super shady company that is sending a helper to wire a house with no help or oversight, yikes.
Click to expand...
 
I do understand concept and I do safe work following my code book as close as possible. I have been working on solid state electronics and DC for years. I am now trying to get my 4K hours before testing to license. Working under company c-10.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
While you can supply the two small appliance branch circuits using a multiwire circuit connected to two single pole breakers with a handle tie or one two pole breaker, there is no way that you can supply two circuits from one single pole breaker.
Parallel connections on the single branch circuit does not create additional branch circuits. Branch circuits can only originate at the load side of an over current protective device.
Click to expand...
So I am correct by feeding two 12-2 nm cables each to its own 20 ampere breaker, followed by first receptacle being ACI and those protected downstream liadside connection of AFCI? Thanks
 
jaggedben said:
No such thing as a Master in California, except for the license qualifier.

He could be working for a GC, legally, if the job involves other trades.

But point taken.
Click to expand...
Business does other trades and c10. However electrical licensing decision won’t ever answer their phones to inform me if this job will count toward my 4K hours prior to journeyman testing?
 
Electrical licensing division not “decision”. Phone changed my wording
 
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